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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2010, 05:01 AM
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Default Coolant system leak repair questions.

Ever since I acquired my new Dove Tunnel Wedge 2x4 manifold for my KC Pond 482 I've been plaque with internal coolant leaks due to the age-old & infamous Dove casting porosity problems. FYI ... I had a BT427MR 1x4 on it for over a year prior to with zero coolant leaks so I'm sure it's TW manifold related. When I first noticed the coolant leak (valve cover milk shakes) I returned it to the vendor (not Keith Craft) for repairs. After spending a large chunk-o-change having it repaired (die grinding, welding and machining), then reinstalling it still leaked.. By recommendation of a couple of our trusted FE builders, I added some block leak sealant to the coolant since the leak was very, very small. The short of that story is it worked. At this point in time the coolant system is tighter than Dick's hat-band. To me a coolant system sealant is a "Band-Aide" and not a permanent and correct fix. I've got a ton of cash invested in the manifold, custom porting, decked and angle milled so the ports line up p-e-r-f-e-c-t-l-y once it's torqued down. That being said I really don't want to pitch it and start from scratch again, especially with the chance of receiving another Dove turd again. I want to fix the darn thing for once and for all..

Since the coolant system passage in the Tunnel Wedge is relatively short and readily accessible I was pondering the thought of having the passage coated. Coatings considered are ceramic, melted bowling balls (no kidding, came highly recommended), glyptal (prone to delaminating from aluminum) and epoxy processes.

Since the original repairer only pressure tested it to around 20 psi (IMO, not sufficient pressure) and made repairs from those findings I was thinking of taking it down and pressure testing it to around 100 psi myself. I've made a couple of 5/8" plate steel block-off plates to cover the water ports. I would probably accomplish this first, prior to the coolant passage coating process.

I would appreciate everyone's thoughts and recommendations on the subject.

Give me hell Rick..

Dave
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:06 AM
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If you can get to the bad spot pull out the tig and fix it for good.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:58 AM
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Don't fix what aint broken --- one school of thought.

I think I agree with you --- fix it right.

What if you pull it and pressure test it to 100 PSI and it holds for a week? Was it the manifold or did the sealent work? Maybe it was a gasket? What if the leak was else where? Oh no now what do you do?
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:54 AM
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Dave,
I understand your desire to have all your stuff "done right"-no cutting corners. But he's my experience.

The block sealant tabs really work and should not be considered a band-aid:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...D&ProdID=30363

That's why these have an OE brand name-they go right in on the assembly line of nearly every motor (especially aluminum) built. That's why the pros you consulted recommended them.

I watched them go into 30+ street/race engines per month, dynoed daily, from 300 to 1100 HP. The castings always had some issues, mostly all minor, and these were the solution. Of course a major machine error or crack was repaired.

On pressure testing-100psi may CAUSE you a problem. I've seen the usual testing was between 40 to 50 psi.
On a Dove, you may blow it sky high at 100-I can say that because I have your same TW. Since your cooling system makes maybe 22psi max, a 50psi test is plenty of margin.

If you must coat the passage, all your choices are effective, but if you PT at 100psi, you may go right through any coating if the underlying flaw in the manifold is bad enough.

Drive it and enjoy it-you've got a ton of work and $$ in it and Barry's great carbs...
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ERA Chas View Post
Dave,
I understand your desire to have all your stuff "done right"-no cutting corners. But he's my experience.

The block sealant tabs really work and should not be considered a band-aid:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp...D&ProdID=30363

That's why these have an OE brand name-they go right in on the assembly line of nearly every motor (especially aluminum) built. That's why the pros you consulted recommended them.

I watched them go into 30+ street/race engines per month, dynoed daily, from 300 to 1100 HP. The castings always had some issues, mostly all minor, and these were the solution. Of course a major machine error or crack was repaired.

On pressure testing-100psi may CAUSE you a problem. I've seen the usual testing was between 40 to 50 psi.
On a Dove, you may blow it sky high at 100-I can say that because I have your same TW. Since your cooling system makes maybe 22psi max, a 50psi test is plenty of margin.


If you must coat the passage, all your choices are effective, but if you PT at 100psi, you may go right through any coating if the underlying flaw in the manifold is bad enough.

Drive it and enjoy it-you've got a ton of work and $$ in it and Barry's great carbs...
I know, the builders gave me the same spiel about the OEs adding it on the assembly line. It still doesn't sit right with me. IMO, still a band-aide.

I might drop back to 50 psi although cast aluminum with any kind of wall thickness should withstand 100 psi. I would probably go to a reduced pressure after I coat it though. A welded repair would be my first choice anyway.

OBTW... They're my carbs. I sort of turned the "patent" rights over to Barry. I spec'd them myself to Quick Fuel and only bought them through Barry, giving him a piece of the pie. As a small business owner myself, I like to keep the "little guy" fed.
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
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... although cast aluminum with any kind of wall thickness should withstand 100 psi.
Not a hallmark of Dove castings-especially close to port walls.
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:56 AM
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Default For the money you spend I think it "SUCKS"

Undy Dave the only thing I would do is to have only distilled water and water wetter in the coolant system. This will not destroy the bearings like coolant. That milk shake in the motor is DEATH.
Is it possible you can get a coolant dye to add to the coolant. Run the motor and drain the motor, You need to drain the motor through the bottom of the block and raditor. This should leave you with just dye stains where the coolant is leaking. If you can get the ports or area clean and dry enough, My thought would be to try Tig welding it first, if this doesnot work, GREY RTV sealer, coolant and cover the ports where it is leaking. The other would be to use a plastic paint that expands and retracts.
GM still sells the tablets for aluminum motors we used for all the older Caddies in the 80's and they do work. The area you are working on is a low pressure area. If you can get 30psi to hold in a hot or cold temp you have it beat. I would only use 100 psi on heads and blocks after being sonic checked.
I think it sucks that you spend alot of money on parts, have port work done, have the parts installed on the motor and after 10 to 15 heat cycles that damn problems start with questionable parts. Has anyone had problems with EDELbrock heads leaking with some head work, Joe? George? Keith? Barry? Brent? See what I mean. Rick L.
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Old 03-10-2010, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RICK LAKE View Post
Undy Dave the only thing I would do is to have only distilled water and water wetter in the coolant system. This will not destroy the bearings like coolant. That milk shake in the motor is DEATH.
Is it possible you can get a coolant dye to add to the coolant. Run the motor and drain the motor, You need to drain the motor through the bottom of the block and raditor. This should leave you with just dye stains where the coolant is leaking. If you can get the ports or area clean and dry enough, My thought would be to try Tig welding it first, if this doesnot work, GREY RTV sealer, coolant and cover the ports where it is leaking. The other would be to use a plastic paint that expands and retracts.
GM still sells the tablets for aluminum motors we used for all the older Caddies in the 80's and they do work. The area you are working on is a low pressure area. If you can get 30psi to hold in a hot or cold temp you have it beat. I would only use 100 psi on heads and blocks after being sonic checked.
I think it sucks that you spend alot of money on parts, have port work done, have the parts installed on the motor and after 10 to 15 heat cycles that damn problems start with questionable parts. Has anyone had problems with EDELbrock heads leaking with some head work, Joe? George? Keith? Barry? Brent? See what I mean. Rick L.
Rick Lake (possessor of internal combustion wisdom), dye's going to do squat for me as the leak's internal (water jacket to oil) and the area that's leaking isn''t accessable till the manifold's removed. Unless, you're talking about hitting it with a UV light once the manifold's off?? Please clarify.

The "milk shake" has come and gone.. 1 time, no harm, no foul. The actual oil still seemed bright and clear w/o "apparent" contamination. It only manifested itself in the valve cover that my PCV is in. That's a good thing. The internal engine's crankcase ventilation air currents are all being pulled into that valve cover by the PVC, along with any water vapors or soluble contaminants. The "cooked off" vapors are "condensing" in the comparitively cooler valve cover. I like that!! It gives me a "water contamination alarm" which enables me to chase the problem before it gets worse.

Sad to say, I've met up with more crap parts and jack-legged work since I've become intimately familiar with the venerable and vulnerable FE then I've ever come in contact with on "other' engines I do understand the why fors and the why nots though... Dam, I almost sound like someone else that's down on FEs.. I still luv'em though..
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:08 PM
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F$%^&@ing Dove intakes sometimes drive me nuts. I think a copy of their catalog might leak. But they are the only ones making numerous parts, and I have to applaud the fact that they never gave up on the FE like so many others did.

We ported Dave's and got it to fit perfectly. He installed it and it leaked like a garden sprinkler. He shipped it back and we made a little pressure tester rig so I could take it to the welder and watch before and after each repair to see if he "got it". Ended up finding a decent sized porosity bunch way down in the front pushrod tube, which John welded up and we machined/redrilled afterward. Tested OK and sent it back to Dave.

He reinstalled it and thought things were "OK" for a while - then he saw the froth in a valve cover and has been justifiably concerned. I suggested the tablets. Glyptal will not work - I have tried that and it literally comes apart in sheets when exposed to hot water. The bowling ball stuff is what they use to redrill the finger holes, and has been recommended by at least one local Pro Stock builder.

I told Dave that 100 pounds would probably end up with an explosion and an obit. Only twice the operating pressure is still more than needed. I'm thinking that wherever it is its tight when cold and opens up when hot. Only way it could be holding pressure when checked and still leaking in operation.

The guy doing the welding is kinda good - definitely not a welder issue. A link to some of his work...
http://www.marcellamanifolds.net/images/Images.html
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:13 PM
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Barry's been champs through the whole affair, trying everything he could to keep this Dove sieve alive. Only with pressure from me would he take any $$ for all the pressure testing, welding and misc machining he and his crew did. He didn't make the POS. I'm still mulling over the internal HPC coating thing. I'm told .005" to .006" is the max build you can reliably do.
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