Unfired FE Stored for 15 years

[sideoiler10]

I bought an unfired FE 427 as part of a package deal that had been stored on a pallet for 15 years in an HVAC environment. The engine was built by a race engine machine shop in San Clemente, CA. Even though the engine had been wrapped very well I was concerned about possible rust and I also wanted to know exactly what I had bought, component wise.

OEM service block with side-oiler passages "undrilled"
Dove "Ron Paquet" Hi-flow aluminum heads w. 2.25/1.76 SS valves
Dove roller rockers
Dove 2x4 "low profile" hi-riser intake
Keith Black pistons .030 over
OEM ford rods (LeMans) 3.78 stroke
Comp Cam # 295 D R 8 (GA4 804)
Comp Cam solid roller lifters
Melling 57HV oil pump
Windage tray
Moroso 10 qt. pan

I have several questions:

1. I was surprised to find a solid roller cam and lifter set with the side oiler passages closed. Is this a potential problem?

2. What are your opinions of the Keith Black pistons? Remember, these are 15 years old. Were they reliable back in the mid nineties? How do they compare with the Diamond and Mahle pieces of today? What are the recommended pistons today?

3. The ring end gaps were pretty wide. What is the spec. on ring end gap?

4. Would I be better off scrapping/selling the above rotating assembly and going with a SCAT forged crank and rods, and new pistons, maybe with a small stroke increase?

5. How much difference should I expect in rpm response between the stock rotating assembly and a small stroker, maybe a 4.15?

[FWB]

at the very least it will need to be torn down and inspected. rings don't like to sit in one position for long periods, they loose there spring and tend to stick to the piston grooves, also tend to mark the wall where they are in contact.

when you refer to the side oiler passages not drilled, if you mean in the rear of the block you may have a marine block. they will oil like a regular FE, and will not be drilled in the rear, also on the side the raised portion where the oil galley extends down the side of the block will have a radiused machining through it such that drilling of the passages will be impossible.

so a tear down, all components checked, and go from there......there really isn't a canned plan of attack. it will all depend on what you find....

[Excaliber]

As I understand it some side oiler FE blocks didn't come out "perfect" from the mold and in those cases they weren't drilled to be a side oiler. Still a good block, just not up to snuff for the standards of the day.

It was tough, and expensive, to cast those thin wall blocks back in the day, with a significant percentage of blocks that didn't meet specs lost in the process. That's the main reason the side oiler blocks sold for MUCH more than the easier to cast 428.

[mrmustang]

The block is known as a 427 "Center oiler", IE: a 427 sideoiler block that has not had it's side-oiler passages machined.



Bill S.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by sideoiler10

1. I was surprised to find a solid roller cam and lifter set with the side oiler passages closed. Is this a potential problem?

2. What are your opinions of the Keith Black pistons? Remember, these are 15 years old. Were they reliable back in the mid nineties? How do they compare with the Diamond and Mahle pieces of today? What are the recommended pistons today?

3. The ring end gaps were pretty wide. What is the spec. on ring end gap?

4. Would I be better off scrapping/selling the above rotating assembly and going with a SCAT forged crank and rods, and new pistons, maybe with a small stroke increase?

5. How much difference should I expect in rpm response between the stock rotating assembly and a small stroker, maybe a 4.15?

1. Are you saying that the upper lifter passages have not been drilled? If so, it's not an optimal setup. The older non-pressure fed lifters relied on splash and they had a reputation of not lasting over 3000-3500 miles. The newer pressure fed lifters from Comp, Crower, Isky, etc., have an orifice that takes oil pressure and helps feed the bearings to give them a longer life.

2. Are these forged? Hypereutectic? Cast? Keith Black pistons are not horrible pistons by any means. For a performance engine, I would look to a forged piston if they are not.

3. You can estimate ring gap by multiplying the bore size by about .004-.0045". That should give you an idea of where you're at. If they're a little wider than that, it's not going to hurt anything.

4. It depends on what you want and where you want to be. You will make more power with more cubic inches. However, if you want a 427, like everyone has to have, then I'd leave it alone. Is it in the budget to buy a new rotating assembly? I prefer brand new parts to 40-50 year old fatigued parts.

5. I think you'll be able to tell the difference between how zippy a stroker is compared to a stock stroke, but this can be minimized with a light rod/piston combination. The difference in "zippiness" will greatly be offset by the amount of horsepower and torque that you'll make.

I would address the camshaft issue first. If the lifter passages have not been drilled, then you're limited to a solid cam. As bad as I hate flat tappet camshafts, I would have to say that you would be better off with one unless you spend some money to have the passages gun-drilled.

[elmariachi]

You mention that the pistons are .030, which by some accounts is nearing the bore limit of the 427 cylinder walls. Given that you will likely be tearing it down, a sonic test to confirm cylinder wall integrity would be a good idea. Especially if you are planning on being the eventual owner/operator of the engine.

[Barry_R]

The Keith Black pistons from many years ago are going to be cast hypers. They require the large end gaps in order to survive. The combination of cast pistons and big gaps is a poor one - and you'd be way ahead with proper fporged pistons and normal rings. The other stuff is better suited to cheap rebuilds on SBCs intended for pickup trucks...

I've handled and inspected more pistons than just about anybody, and the KB stuff is really crude in comparison to Diamond, Probe, JE, CP or any other modern parts. They are on a par with the made in India stuff my former employer (F-M) is pushing these days.

Are the oiling passages feeding the lifters blocked off? That was an old school mod that mirrored what Ford did in the original 427s for solid lifters. I've run that package for a lot of street miles - but you need ot stay on top of spring pressure and keep the idle speeds up. Agains - newer stuff will be better. In any case a solid roller and KB slugs are an intuitive mismatch - budget street pistons and a race cam...

[sideoiler10]

I want to thank each of you who took the time to respond. Your sum total responses pretty much mirror what I was afraid of once we tore the engine down. In addition, after my posting, we measured the bore and found it is actually .040 WOW! Checked the pistons and they are marked 40 underneath.

Looks like I have a very expensive boat anchor! Tis a shame, we sold our big boat 6 years ago. LOL

One last set of questions, if I may:

1. I guess I will have to start over on the engine. What is your recommended bore and stroke for a Genesis iron block, or would you recommend aluminum?

*Use of engine: I am building an A/FX 64 Cyclone for mostly street, but I do plan to put it on the strip for some competition. Nostalgia drags of course. I want the engine to have more torque and power than the original 427s did. But I want the engine to have a long life (like everyone else, ha). This will be my 3rd 427 but my first to be a stroker so I need a little advice. I would like to see it in the 10s. Any advice?

[Excaliber]

Wow, side oiler block out to .040? I wouldn't think it was possible, but maybe it's OK, depending on wall thickness? Or is that far out even realistic?

I got it!!! Fill the water jackets with cement and make a drag race motor!

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by sideoiler10

This will be my 3rd 427 but my first to be a stroker so I need a little advice. I would like to see it in the 10s. Any advice?

Have Barry build it for you. He's done drag FEs for 4 decades.

[Barry_R]

I've done the .040 over deal before - I mean hey - are you gonna scrap a 427? I don't think so. The last couple were sonic checked and both got a short fill of hard block to stabilize the cylinders. Just enough to go to below the core plugs.

Both sonic'd around +/- .080 right where the floor of the water jackets joined the cylinder jackets, so the short fill gave some support. They both seem to cool OK on the street, and one of them made 613HP and ran into the 10s in a '65 Mustang. The other is in a Cobra and just cruises around Toledo....

[sideoiler10]

You just made my day...hell, for that matter you made my week!

Earlier today I decided to go ahead and put everything back together and run it and see what happens. I plan to run it in on a dyno to see how strong it is and make sure there are no leaks before I install it into the 64 Comet. Barry, I sent you a PM earlier today.

[Dwight]

my buddy has a 427 punched .042" over in his Cobra. Makes 619 hp and no over heating problems.

Dwight

[sideoiler10]

Can you tell me some of the specs on your buddy's 427. Maybe I'm not as bad off as I thought. I may opt to replace the KB pistons, LeMans rods, and the OEM crank with some up to day pieces and try to get some more power. I think I have the top end with the current heads and the cam. Just need stronger pistons, maybe Diamond and a SCAT stroker with rods. What bore and stroke is your friends motor?

[Excaliber]

As for the KB's, IF they are hyper's, I'm not a big fan of those, forged for me, or nothing. Anyway to tell for sure what they are? All though, the ring gap seems to have them pegged as hyper...

I'm running the stock 428 crank and Le Mans rods in my side oiler. 454 cubes or something like that it works out to. LOTS of torque! So far so good, the crank and rods have been through two rebuilds, about 30,000 HARD miles and hanging in there. Who knows how many miles they had on them before I got them?

The first engine build was solid roller cam (12.5 to 1 C.R.) and I spun it to 7,000. Bottom end was fine on the tear down. The MODERN solid roller cam is what gave out (so much for modern is better )! I went back to old school, flat tappet cam, which also lowered my max rpm, I'm OK with that.

I've seen new rods and cranks break, so there is no absolute gaurentee no matter what you do. I reckon new stuff is better, stronger, last longer, take's more punishment,,, I guess. But for me, the old stuff has been very darn dependable, and the price was right (I already had the parts).

If and when it blows something, maybe I'll consider giving modern parts another look,,, maybe, unless I stumble across some Le Man's rods at a nice price.

[sideoiler10]

I am sure they are.

I keep bouncing back and forth between re-assembly with the parts that are there and replacing the rotating assembly with SCAT stroker and forged pistons. I see Diamond pistons alot, and Mahle, Probe, etc. Would that be a mistake given the .040 over bore?

[Dwight]

Sideoiler10

Mike's motor was smoking on the right side. I removed the head thinking it was a gasket problem. It was not. I contacted Keith Craft and emailed him pictures of the light scratches in two of the bores.
Mike took the motor to Keith who rebuild it with a new stroker kit. Keith had the pistons custom made to .042". The not so old pistons were .040". The motor is now a 487 c.i. monster. It will spin to 7000 and feels like it could do more.

After I installed the motor I would let is idle for 30 - 35 minutes to see if it would over heat. Before the rebuild Mike had problems with over heating. A new water pump, adjustable fan t-stat and the correct water / anti freeze ratio fixed the problem.

I would suggest you let Keith look at your motor.

Oh yea, I sold all of Mike's old parts. Lots of people looking for good 427 cranks, rods and .040" pistons.

Dwight

[sideoiler10]

Thanks, man. You guys are making me feel alot better about the bore in the engine.

The motor was built by what I was told is a very reputable performance machine shop in a town south of L.A. along I-5. (don't want to mention names) Again, it was built about 15 yrs. ago and stored until now. The hone marks are visible in the cylinders and there are no scratches other than the fine hone markings. Deck surfaces have been milled, or appear to have been. The inside of the block appears to have been coated with glyptol or some similar coating to seal it and improve oiling.

If I decide to go with a stroker what would be the best length given the .040 bore? If someone would be interested in a set of LeMans rods and an OEM 427 crank, let me know. If I put in a stroker assembly, they and the KB pistons will be forsale.

Thank you again for all your responses. Once again, you guys have proved that this is undoubtedly the BEST forum of any kind on the internet. Bob

[undy]

If the motor's pulled down FOR ANY REASON then the block should be sonic checked for cylinder wall thickness. I know a bunch of top-o-the-line machine shops that know squat about FEs. They think everything can be punched out 0.060" like BBCs. Like Barry said, a half fill of hard-block can take care of a lot of cylinder instabilities. It's not only overheating that's the issue. I thin walled cylinder can move around and distort causing not only overheating but loss of ring sealing and excessive blow-by.