427 FE vs 351w, advantages?

[Avmaviator]

I am pretty new to the V8 world and am looking for a powerplant for a Kirkham. I have done some searches on this forum and google in general but I guess I am still confused about some of the basic concept.

My main question/confusion is the difference between a 427 FE and a 427 via a 351w. So I see there are actual 427 fe blocks, which you use to build 427 and up. And also, the 351w can be bored out to 427 and up... It seems like some engine builders only use the 351w to produce their 427s. So does the engine size/number only refer to the "end product?" For example, when I looked at the Genesis site, they sell a 427 side oiler, that is a "straight" 427 without boring basically using the 427 block? Their 468 is just a bored out 427 block?

So, what are the main advantages of using a 351w vs a 427 fe block for a Cobra build? I am looking for a mostly street driven, occasional track day, turnkey 427 engine (more specifically, using a 427 block), in the neighborhood of 500hp.

Thank you for answering my vague questions

Arno

[madmaxx]

Big Block, 427 or larger stock bore equal torque and that is what you feel in the seat of your pants. Small block stroked to 427 will rev much quicker, more exponential where the big block feels more linear.

I drove one with a 460 I let out the clutch and did not give any gas the car didnt even stumble, massive torque, but when i crushed the gas peddle I never felt the car accelerating as fast as a stroked small block.

Some say a small block has weight advantages, with my fat a&(( I dont think it matters much after owning three small blocks if I dont go with a coyote engine it will be a big block next time. TORQUE = FUN, I love smoking the tires.

[Jerry Clayton]

Get ahold of Bob Brown--he has a stock stroke 428 PI with Edelbrock heads and single 4 barrel--won't be long before weather is good enough for a ride---

[LewPoberezny]

I feel an engine builder like Mike forte from http://www.fortesparts.com/
can answer all your questions. He is buidling a 482 using a Shelby aluminum block for me as I write this. This a standard bore 427FE block stroked to a 482I feel most use the 351 windsor stroked to a 427 more due to cheaper costs involved.

[dcdoug]

Either Brent Lykins (blykins) or Keith Craft (Keithc8) can answer all your questions as well as build you a great engine. They are very active members of this forum and give generously of their time.

[bobcowan]

They're both great engines. And the you won't go wrong with either one.

But, they are very differant engines, and fill a couple of differant roles. They both have their ups and downs. Power and performance levels between the two engines will be very close to the same. They can both be built to do pretty much whatever you want.

The Windsor motors are certainly cheaper, and parts for them are everywhere. Parts for the FE motors have become easier to find in recent years. But they are not cheap. You'll spend a lot more money building a race ready FE compared to a Windsor.

The 351W is slightly larger (taller and wider) than the 302W, so it's a little harder to work on. The FE is considerably larger than the 351W. But that engine bay doesn't get any bigger. On some cars, that's a real issue.

The FE certainly weighs more than a comparable Windsor. You can sill get the FE motored car to handle and brake well; but don't expect to win any races that involve turning. If you're building a fun street car, the weight becomes a non-issue.

There are a lot of engines that fit and work well in a Cobra. There are only two that look exactly right. If that's what you're after - the exact "right" look - the 351W is out.

But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I am pretty new to the V8 world and am looking for a powerplant for a Kirkham.
My main question/confusion is the difference between a 427 FE and a 427 via a 351w.

For a 427 Kirkham, IMHO you should strongly consider the FE; not sure there are many 427 Kirkham cars that don't have FEs in them.

[RodKnock]

I pray that this thread doesn't turn into a small block versus big block thread.

Stentor is correct. There may not be a 427-bodied Kirkham with a 351-based engine. I'd have to look through the Shelby World Registry , since the Kirkhams are listed in it.

I'm sure there's somebody out there, but you must consider resale price since nearly all Kirkham buyers install an FE in their 427 S/C's or street models.

I go one further and say that aren't many 428's installed either.

[skippy]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I pray that this thread doesn't turn into a small block versus big block thread.

.

Without getting of the topic, just my thoughts.

Its a fair question and for some time i have thought about buying a Kirkham and the engine selection would be for sure a FE.

For me it wouldnt be about advanatges, i would just want the Kirkham to be as original as they were in the past.

But thats my thoughts.

Learning is part of the game.

Best of luck.

Skippy.

[elmariachi]

You are focusing only on the cubic inch numbers and there's more to it than that. The FE engine family came to be in the late 50s and spans the 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427 and 428 cid derivatives. These are muscle-prone cast iron heavyweights that proved themselves in NASCAR well into the 70s and are, for Cobra purists, the Holy Grail. The 351 is part of the small block Ford family, evolving from the smaller 289/302 family and taking root during and after the early 70s gas crunch as the staple V-8 for Ford. Through stroking and boring the 351-based engine has yielded a number of large cubic inch engines, including the 427 "Windsor." You can also bore a 427FE up to larger cubes and they can be stroked as well, producing stupendous amounts of torque. The 427 FE and the 427 Windsor have the same cubic inch displacement, but they are as different as a chicken and a rhino (you can pick which is which.)

As mentioned earlier each have unique power and torque characteristics, and each have their pros and cons. The FE is a bit larger and heavier, generates more heat, is harder to find in original condition, etc. The Windsor is smaller, lighter, parts are plentiful and fairly priced. Some guys choose FEs to be period-correct, some just like fixing leaks all the time. Some simply can't afford FEs or don't want to learn how to babysit their unique characteristics. Some could care less about period-correctness and just want the most power for the least $.

You should decide whether or not a period-correct engine platform is part of your finished car objectives. If not, the 351/427W might be for you. If you want to have the same 427 in your car that was available in the 60s, then you want the FE. As you are about to see in this thread, the Kirkham and FE are considered by many to be synonymous.

[blykins]

For a Kirkham 427 car, go with the FE.

How about a street driven, occasional track day, turnkey FE engine in the neighborhood of 600hp? If you're going to pay for a new 427 block, don't stop at 427 cubic inches. The more cubic inches you have, the more horsepower you can make without making the engine un-streetable. 482ci is a very common size for these.

[BBQCYCLEWERKES]

Agree, a Kirkham really isn't a Kirkham unless it has a 427 side oiler in it. There is just nothing like the combo or a Kirkham with an FE. I'm now really starting to think about a Kirkham with one of the oem cammers I have. May be heavy in the front end but what jaw dropping expression will you see on peoples faces when you open the hood.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by blykins

For a Kirkham 427 car, go with the FE.

How about a street driven, occasional track day, turnkey FE engine in the neighborhood of 600hp? If you're going to pay for a new 427 block, don't stop at 427 cubic inches. The more cubic inches you have, the more horsepower you can make without making the engine un-streetable. 482ci is a very common size for these.

An FE is the only one to choose for a Kirkham. If you have chosen a Kirkham 427, then one reason for that choice is probably that you want something that is very close to the original 427s of the 60s, and no Windsors went into 427s that I am aware of.
The authenticity angle highlights another issue to me as well.... FEs bored/stroked out to 482ci were never fitted or available way back when, were they? My personal view is that if the components were available in the 60s the it's OK to mix and match now, so a 427FE stroked out to 454 with a 428 crank is OK, but anything bigger is not really kosher.
Cheers,
Glen

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by xb-60

My personal view is that if the components were available in the 60s the it's OK to mix and match now, so a 427FE stroked out to 454 with a 428 crank is OK, but anything bigger is not really kosher.
Cheers,
Glen

But you can't see it. Now the modern billet aluminum suspension and Wilwood brakes you can see.

Which brings us to one Kirkham option that wasn't mentioned on your other thread. The $16,000 "upgrade" to the original type suspension.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

But you can't see it. Now the modern billet aluminum suspension and Wilwood brakes you can see.

Which brings us to one Kirkham option that wasn't mentioned on your other thread. The $16,000 "upgrade" to the original type suspension.

I did not want to get into the same SB vs BB debate, but I was thinking the exact same thing about suspension, brakes etc... If you say you have to go with a BB to be original then where does it stop?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by SP01715

... If you say you have to go with a BB to be original then where does it stop?

... with dual roll bars.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by SP01715

I did not want to get into the same SB vs BB debate, but I was thinking the exact same thing about suspension, brakes etc... If you say you have to go with a BB to be original then where does it stop?

It's all matter of degrees on the spectrum of life and also how much money you have in the bank that you're willing to withdraw.

[Avmaviator]

Thanks a lot guys, this is starting to make sense.

Now I just have the "easy" task of picking which engine I'm going to use... Better go set up the pictures on the dartboard

Overall (I know this question is totally on a personal preference level) which engine is more fun to drive? Torque more fun to drive then revs? I've never driven a cobra, and most of my racing/driving has been high rpm revving engines, so I'm new to large amount of torque (new is good).

[Excaliber]

I prefer the FE for a simple reason. It's a piece of cake stroking it with a 428 crank, resulting in around 454 cubes and is not stressing the motor at all. Whereas, a 351W pushed out to 427 is at max dimensions. Some say it's an engine on the edge and I agree, it's a cube size to large for my liking.

What may offset that is the reality that few of us will ever see a lot of miles put on either engine, so perhaps it's a moot point? 10,000 miles in the world of Cobras is a bunch. I've got about 20,000 on my side oiler, but it was refreshed at about 10,000 (due to a broken solid roller lifter, the engine itself was still in excellent condition).

I dumped the roller and went back to flat tappet. For whatever reason's, I've been surprised how long it took for the new refreshed motor to "break in", at least 5,000 miles. Now at 10,000 it feels like it's finally at the point where it's the best it's ever been.

[Avmaviator]

Thanks a lot guys, this is starting to make sense.

Now I just have the "easy" task of picking which engine I'm going to use... Better go set up the pictures on the dartboard

Overall (I know this question is totally on a personal preference level) which engine is more fun to drive? Torque more fun to drive then revs? I've never driven a cobra, and most of my racing/driving has been high rpm revving engines, so I'm new to large amount of torque (new is good).

Thanks for your responses

Arno