427 FE vs 351w, advantages?

[Avmaviator]

I am pretty new to the V8 world and am looking for a powerplant for a Kirkham. I have done some searches on this forum and google in general but I guess I am still confused about some of the basic concept.

My main question/confusion is the difference between a 427 FE and a 427 via a 351w. So I see there are actual 427 fe blocks, which you use to build 427 and up. And also, the 351w can be bored out to 427 and up... It seems like some engine builders only use the 351w to produce their 427s. So does the engine size/number only refer to the "end product?" For example, when I looked at the Genesis site, they sell a 427 side oiler, that is a "straight" 427 without boring basically using the 427 block? Their 468 is just a bored out 427 block?

So, what are the main advantages of using a 351w vs a 427 fe block for a Cobra build? I am looking for a mostly street driven, occasional track day, turnkey 427 engine (more specifically, using a 427 block), in the neighborhood of 500hp.

Thank you for answering my vague questions

Arno

[madmaxx]

Big Block, 427 or larger stock bore equal torque and that is what you feel in the seat of your pants. Small block stroked to 427 will rev much quicker, more exponential where the big block feels more linear.

I drove one with a 460 I let out the clutch and did not give any gas the car didnt even stumble, massive torque, but when i crushed the gas peddle I never felt the car accelerating as fast as a stroked small block.

Some say a small block has weight advantages, with my fat a&(( I dont think it matters much after owning three small blocks if I dont go with a coyote engine it will be a big block next time. TORQUE = FUN, I love smoking the tires.

[Jerry Clayton]

Get ahold of Bob Brown--he has a stock stroke 428 PI with Edelbrock heads and single 4 barrel--won't be long before weather is good enough for a ride---

[LewPoberezny]

I feel an engine builder like Mike forte from http://www.fortesparts.com/
can answer all your questions. He is buidling a 482 using a Shelby aluminum block for me as I write this. This a standard bore 427FE block stroked to a 482I feel most use the 351 windsor stroked to a 427 more due to cheaper costs involved.

[dcdoug]

Either Brent Lykins (blykins) or Keith Craft (Keithc8) can answer all your questions as well as build you a great engine. They are very active members of this forum and give generously of their time.

[bobcowan]

They're both great engines. And the you won't go wrong with either one.

But, they are very differant engines, and fill a couple of differant roles. They both have their ups and downs. Power and performance levels between the two engines will be very close to the same. They can both be built to do pretty much whatever you want.

The Windsor motors are certainly cheaper, and parts for them are everywhere. Parts for the FE motors have become easier to find in recent years. But they are not cheap. You'll spend a lot more money building a race ready FE compared to a Windsor.

The 351W is slightly larger (taller and wider) than the 302W, so it's a little harder to work on. The FE is considerably larger than the 351W. But that engine bay doesn't get any bigger. On some cars, that's a real issue.

The FE certainly weighs more than a comparable Windsor. You can sill get the FE motored car to handle and brake well; but don't expect to win any races that involve turning. If you're building a fun street car, the weight becomes a non-issue.

There are a lot of engines that fit and work well in a Cobra. There are only two that look exactly right. If that's what you're after - the exact "right" look - the 351W is out.

But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

I am pretty new to the V8 world and am looking for a powerplant for a Kirkham.
My main question/confusion is the difference between a 427 FE and a 427 via a 351w.

For a 427 Kirkham, IMHO you should strongly consider the FE; not sure there are many 427 Kirkham cars that don't have FEs in them.

[RodKnock]

I pray that this thread doesn't turn into a small block versus big block thread.

Stentor is correct. There may not be a 427-bodied Kirkham with a 351-based engine. I'd have to look through the Shelby World Registry , since the Kirkhams are listed in it.

I'm sure there's somebody out there, but you must consider resale price since nearly all Kirkham buyers install an FE in their 427 S/C's or street models.

I go one further and say that aren't many 428's installed either.

[elmariachi]

You are focusing only on the cubic inch numbers and there's more to it than that. The FE engine family came to be in the late 50s and spans the 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427 and 428 cid derivatives. These are muscle-prone cast iron heavyweights that proved themselves in NASCAR well into the 70s and are, for Cobra purists, the Holy Grail. The 351 is part of the small block Ford family, evolving from the smaller 289/302 family and taking root during and after the early 70s gas crunch as the staple V-8 for Ford. Through stroking and boring the 351-based engine has yielded a number of large cubic inch engines, including the 427 "Windsor." You can also bore a 427FE up to larger cubes and they can be stroked as well, producing stupendous amounts of torque. The 427 FE and the 427 Windsor have the same cubic inch displacement, but they are as different as a chicken and a rhino (you can pick which is which.)

As mentioned earlier each have unique power and torque characteristics, and each have their pros and cons. The FE is a bit larger and heavier, generates more heat, is harder to find in original condition, etc. The Windsor is smaller, lighter, parts are plentiful and fairly priced. Some guys choose FEs to be period-correct, some just like fixing leaks all the time. Some simply can't afford FEs or don't want to learn how to babysit their unique characteristics. Some could care less about period-correctness and just want the most power for the least $.

You should decide whether or not a period-correct engine platform is part of your finished car objectives. If not, the 351/427W might be for you. If you want to have the same 427 in your car that was available in the 60s, then you want the FE. As you are about to see in this thread, the Kirkham and FE are considered by many to be synonymous.

[blykins]

For a Kirkham 427 car, go with the FE.

How about a street driven, occasional track day, turnkey FE engine in the neighborhood of 600hp? If you're going to pay for a new 427 block, don't stop at 427 cubic inches. The more cubic inches you have, the more horsepower you can make without making the engine un-streetable. 482ci is a very common size for these.

[BBQCYCLEWERKES]

Agree, a Kirkham really isn't a Kirkham unless it has a 427 side oiler in it. There is just nothing like the combo or a Kirkham with an FE. I'm now really starting to think about a Kirkham with one of the oem cammers I have. May be heavy in the front end but what jaw dropping expression will you see on peoples faces when you open the hood.

[Avmaviator]

Thanks a lot guys, this is starting to make sense.

Now I just have the "easy" task of picking which engine I'm going to use... Better go set up the pictures on the dartboard

Overall (I know this question is totally on a personal preference level) which engine is more fun to drive? Torque more fun to drive then revs? I've never driven a cobra, and most of my racing/driving has been high rpm revving engines, so I'm new to large amount of torque (new is good).

[Excaliber]

I prefer the FE for a simple reason. It's a piece of cake stroking it with a 428 crank, resulting in around 454 cubes and is not stressing the motor at all. Whereas, a 351W pushed out to 427 is at max dimensions. Some say it's an engine on the edge and I agree, it's a cube size to large for my liking.

What may offset that is the reality that few of us will ever see a lot of miles put on either engine, so perhaps it's a moot point? 10,000 miles in the world of Cobras is a bunch. I've got about 20,000 on my side oiler, but it was refreshed at about 10,000 (due to a broken solid roller lifter, the engine itself was still in excellent condition).

I dumped the roller and went back to flat tappet. For whatever reason's, I've been surprised how long it took for the new refreshed motor to "break in", at least 5,000 miles. Now at 10,000 it feels like it's finally at the point where it's the best it's ever been.

[Avmaviator]

Thanks a lot guys, this is starting to make sense.

Now I just have the "easy" task of picking which engine I'm going to use... Better go set up the pictures on the dartboard

Overall (I know this question is totally on a personal preference level) which engine is more fun to drive? Torque more fun to drive then revs? I've never driven a cobra, and most of my racing/driving has been high rpm revving engines, so I'm new to large amount of torque (new is good).

Thanks for your responses

Arno

[Jerry Clayton]

while everyone is talking about strokers---back in the day, the Nascar guys destroked them to kill off bottom end and add to the top.

Get ahold of Bob Brown, he's a WCCC member and has a stock strke 428 pi with Edelbrock heads ported at KCraft that we did 2 years ago---Everybody is amazed at the low end docility and yet the power that comes on with just a moderate push on the pedal.

We also built a stroked 427/482 for a gennie Shelby 500gt 68 mustang and that guy ended up putting a smaller carb on it to tame it some---seems those old 14 inch tires on those kelsey hays wheels would dissappear quicker than a tank of gas

Call Corey at 630-532-4052 and he can tell you about there details---this morning he's out at Nickey Chev doing one of those new Camaros, probably back around noon.

[Excaliber]

destroking was more common back in the day. The GM 302, what could be called a destroked 327 (a bit miss leading but you see the point) is a good example of that thinking. Of course there were other reasons for a 5 liter block back then.

The modern thinking is a long stroke and small bore, like the GM 305, totally different than it's brother the 302.

The principle behind it remains very valid indeed. BIG bore, short stroke, builds rpm faster and runs higher rpm with less risk of failure. A classic "recipe" used by many many race engine type designs for decades. Still hold true today.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

Overall (I know this question is totally on a personal preference level) which engine is more fun to drive? Torque more fun to drive then revs? I've never driven a cobra, and most of my racing/driving has been high rpm revving engines, so I'm new to large amount of torque (new is good).

Thanks for your responses

Arno

The hardest choice has been made already, which is "Which Cobra manufacturer/company?"

I think you'll find that almost anything in a Cobra is fun to drive. Regardless of the engine you install, 302W-based, 351W-based, FE, or even a 460-based (385 series) engine, which we haven't discussed, you'll have a lot of fun.

Think about your budget, resale, if you care about, and do what makes you feel happy.

[rodneym]

Avmaviator,
When you build your 'perfect beast', are you going to give her 32A's or 34DD's?
You know what to do.

[601HP]

For the car you've chosen:

If you install a non-FE engine now, somewhere down the road you'll probably wish your original choice had been the FE.

David

[HI Cobra]

The Kirkham 427 S/C with the SO 427 is like bread and butter. Can't beat the
combo and you won't regret the choice if you ever have to sell. JMHO