FE Fail

[blykins]

Craig,

I assembled the engine.

The intake and heads (if I remember correctly, this has been a year and a half ago) were sent by David straight to Keith after I talked to Keith and arranged the work. Keith had originally supplied the cylinder heads and since it was a "Stage 1" job, we thought it would be easy to throw them back in his CNC machine and go to a "Stage 3". Keith did the port work, valve job, supplied the valves, changed the guides to a 5/16" valve guide, and milled them so the T&D race rockers would fit. Keith also ported the intake.

When I received the heads, I assembled them with the correct valve springs, and I supplied the entire bottom end: new Pond aluminum block, new custom Scat steel crankshaft, new Oliver rods, new Diamond pistons, new Comp Cams solid roller cam, etc., etc. It was fully assembled here and I took the engine to my normal dyno shop and dyno'd it before sending it out.

To answer your question, I did not pressure test nor crack check the heads or intake. I also can't remember if I asked Keith to do it. Keith and I always talked over text message or cell phone, so I wouldn't have an email record to check.

Hope that helps.

[1795]

Sometimes the issue with oil usage can be related to mis-manufactured parts and not mechanic issues. I and previous owners were chasing down oil usage issues on my FE that came down to a poorly manufactured intake manifold that was not square. When the intake manifold was replaced with a new one that was properly manufactured (same manufacturer for both) the oil consumption issue disappeared. It can be difficult to mix engine parts from different suppliers too.

I think that one issue that may not get adequately addressed here is the understanding that when you start to push horsepower into the 600+ range engine longevity suffers. Most racers rebuild their engines after a season of racing because the engines need it; excessive wear is common and internal parts receive a lot of abuse with that degree of power. For most of these engines we are talking about a season being typically less than 500 miles worth of use. In many instances less than 250 miles. I know of people who build high horsepower engines for their race cars with the understanding that the engine will be good for one race.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by 1795

Sometimes the issue with oil usage can be related to mis-manufactured parts and not mechanic issues. I and previous owners were chasing down oil usage issues on my FE that came down to a poorly manufactured intake manifold that was not square. When the intake manifold was replaced with a new one that was properly manufactured (same manufacturer for both) the oil consumption issue disappeared. It can be difficult to mix engine parts from different suppliers too.

I think that one issue that may not get adequately addressed here is the understanding that when you start to push horsepower into the 600+ range engine longevity suffers. Most racers rebuild their engines after a season of racing because the engines need it; excessive wear is common and internal parts receive a lot of abuse with that degree of power. For most of these engines we are talking about a season being typically less than 500 miles worth of use. In many instances less than 250 miles. I know of people who build high horsepower engines for their race cars with the understanding that the engine will be good for one race.

I agree that an engine close to 700 hp is not an engine I would expect to last in terms of street driving. That's not a street engine.

I still don't understand what value is to be gained as it has been presented.

[moore_rb]

I'm reminded of the old adage: "Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth" -

"It's Keith Craft's cylinder heads and intake!"

"No- It's your short Block!"

"No- It's your driving habits!"

"No- It's aliens! "


Spending big bucks on a large-cube, high power aluminum racing engine... And then going with a suspicious, used intake and warmed-over cylinder heads...? Does not compute.

Customer: :"Let's make a 900HP, fully streetable engine, using these warmed-over aluminum parts that I've been flogging for over 15,000 miles"

Engine builder- "Stop right there - if you want a high-cube, high power Ford street engine that has ANY degree of durability and reliability, then we shouldn't cut corners- We should use components that are new, stress-free castings, that can be blueprinted and machined together, in order to meet your performance, and durability expectations.


Customer: "I hear your concerns, but this is my engine, my money, and I want to do this my way"

Engine Builder "It's not worth my reputation, or my business- Have a nice day"


Just a random, 3rd party point of view from someone in the peanut gallery- but it sounds like both of you share culpability in this engine's premature failure.

[jhv48]

So, what would cause compression rings to disintegrate like that?

Just looking for cause/effect info.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by moore_rb

I'm reminded of the old adage: "Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth" -

"It's Keith Craft's cylinder heads and intake!"

"No- It's your short Block!"

"No- It's your driving habits!"

"No- It's aliens! "


Spending big bucks on a large-cube, high power aluminum racing engine... And then going with a suspicious, used intake and warmed-over cylinder heads...? Does not compute.

Customer: :"Let's make a 900HP, fully streetable engine, using these warmed-over aluminum parts that I've been flogging for over 15,000 miles"

Engine builder- "Stop right there - if you want a high-cube, high power Ford street engine that has ANY degree of durability and reliability, then we shouldn't cut corners- We should use components that are new, stress-free castings, that can be blueprinted and machined together, in order to meet your performance, and durability expectations.


Customer: "I hear your concerns, but this is my engine, my money, and I want to do this my way"

Engine Builder "It's not worth my reputation, or my business- Have a nice day"


Just a random, 3rd party point of view from someone in the peanut gallery- but it sounds like both of you share culpability in this engine's premature failure.

Well, if we were never allowed to use used or second hand parts, then most race engines wouldn't get freshened up each season as it would cost too much.

Nothing wrong with using used parts and unfortunately there are only so many professional head porters that I trusted/trust. Since they were Keith's heads initially, it made sense to let him do the work.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by jhv48

So, what would cause compression rings to disintegrate like that?

Just looking for cause/effect info.

Heavy wear.

Could be detonation, could be a rich condition that washes down the cylinders so that the cylinders can't be lubricated with oil. On the builders side, it could be insufficient end gap.

[cobrakiwi]

Originally Posted by blykins

Craig,

I assembled the engine.

The intake and heads (if I remember correctly, this has been a year and a half ago) were sent by David straight to Keith after I talked to Keith and arranged the work. Keith had originally supplied the cylinder heads and since it was a "Stage 1" job, we thought it would be easy to throw them back in his CNC machine and go to a "Stage 3". Keith did the port work, valve job, supplied the valves, changed the guides to a 5/16" valve guide, and milled them so the T&D race rockers would fit. Keith also ported the intake.

When I received the heads, I assembled them with the correct valve springs, and I supplied the entire bottom end: new Pond aluminum block, new custom Scat steel crankshaft, new Oliver rods, new Diamond pistons, new Comp Cams solid roller cam, etc., etc. It was fully assembled here and I took the engine to my normal dyno shop and dyno'd it before sending it out.

To answer your question, I did not pressure test nor crack check the heads or intake. I also can't remember if I asked Keith to do it. Keith and I always talked over text message or cell phone, so I wouldn't have an email record to check.

Hope that helps.

Thank you Brent for your answer, this is very clear to me now, you built the engine.

[blykins]

Not sure what was meant by that, but yes, I claim responsibility for everything that goes through my shop.

That's why I offered to fix it on warranty. Why would I warranty the engine if someone else built it???

[HSC-ZL1]

High oil consumption in the combustion chamber can cause high carbon build-up which can be very abrasive. I had that very issue with my crate engine. compression rings looked like they had been sand blasted.

[Barry_R]

I am not going to "take sides" on this because there is no way to gain anything. But I can say that some of the claims are pretty aggressive to be putting out in a public forum without real supporting information.

I spent a few years of my career working with piston rings and engine bearings on a rather large scale. At one point I had a hand in and was a frequent visitor in the failure analysis lab for a tier one OEM manufacturer of those parts.

Provide some well focused clear images of the piston skirts, piston rings, and bearings from this engine. No excuses for unfocused stuff - my cell phone can take amazingly good and clear pictures. If I can see the sides and gaps of the rings, the sides tops and skirts of the pistons, and the bearings - I might, maybe, be able to provide good information as to what went wrong. Or what did not.

Some of the stuff stated simply has to be repeated verbatim from the second engine guy, and is not an accurate assessment of how certain wear occurs - ie. ring debris does not get embedded into piston skirts from any normal or accelerated wear. We will discuss mechanical ring face failure if appropriate once I see your pictures.

Oil control and compression sealing are two nearly unrelated, but interdependent variables. You can have excellent compression sealing and poor oil control, or the opposite. But if you do something that mechanically fails the ring package, everything will go to hell very quickly.

[601HP]

My new user name, HTM101 allows a maximum 600x600 photo resolution. the 601HP user name allows a 1000x1000 resolution.

These photos were taken after driving the new engine 45 miles. Neither jetting or air bleeds had been changed from the "as received" state of tune provided by the assembler. Single plane intake and 2x4 carb set up.

[moore_rb]

Originally Posted by blykins

Well, if we were never allowed to use used or second hand parts, then most race engines wouldn't get freshened up each season as it would cost too much.

Nothing wrong with using used parts and unfortunately there are only so many professional head porters that I trusted/trust. Since they were Keith's heads initially, it made sense to let him do the work.

I didn't say anything about re-using parts on racing engines - But this HTM101/610HP guy stated that his engine was going south after a 4 mile drive in mixed traffic, where the RPMs never went above 4000...

I gather from that post that he was using your "racing engine" as a grocery-getter.

That's not a normal operating environment for a 700+HP carbureted engine (There is a reason that all the OEMs have moved to EFI and superchargers to make 600+HP reliably).

An engine should be designed to its target driving and operating environment. The customer is as responsible as the builder in making this determination.

I also don't have any criticisms about components machined by other builders- I've thrown assembled Brodix/Trick Flow/Edelbrock heads on any number of engines, without stopping to ask about whether Brodix/TFS/Edelbrock built them properly - That's a side-tangent anyway, since from what I read here, this engine didn't fail because of Keith's heads.

This engine crapped out due to cascading, uniform abrasive wear- But is that the builder's fault? Not necessarily- As many here have speculated, the cylinders may have washed; and that can be due to a bad tune, or running a carb'd engine with too much valve overlap at low RPM's for too long... many factors to take into account...

To me, this whole story is just another example of the same story I've heard 30+ times in my 30+ years working on cars (including 7+ years as a Powertrain Durability Tech for GM at their Desert Proving Ground)

High-strung, carb'd race engines don't belong on the street - Ask me what I think about any person who would go to an engine builder and ask for such an engine, so they can stuff it into a 2400 pound car, and go hit the weekend car-shows and open track days, and my reply will probably be "Fan-boy bench racer with more money than brains"

I'm just throwing 2 more cents into the well of public opinion... Isn't that what Internet forums are for?

Brent- I want to make sure that it's clear I'm not targetting any of my viewpoints at you as blame for this engine's demise - From what I read in these posts, you did what a reputable engine builder would/should do (dyno test, post dyno oil analysis, etc), plus you offered to look at the engine under warranty- What else can you do? My only feedback to you regarding this topic is: "Know your customer" - Just because the customer is always right, does not mean the customer is always correct - But that's free advice- Take it or leave it.

What I read from HTM101's posts that he expected your 700HP carbureted race engine to behave like a Ford Coyote on the street... and if so, then that was certainly an unfair expectation. JMHO

[moore_rb]

Cylinder 3 was dead, and was pumping raw fuel through your engine - Is that the cylinder where the cross-hatch was worn off?

Cylinder4 is excessively rich because of raw fuel puddling in the intake runners, due to the adjacent cylinder 3 being dead -When a cylinder is not firing, it also is not generating heat, and so it isn't contributing to the proper fuel vapor distribution in that region of the intake manifold.

The rest of those spark plugs look really good to me... They display a healthy state of tune on the engine overall.

Being a 700HP engine, I imagine the idle was pretty choppy, but did you check to make sure that each spark plug was firing (with a timing light) when you first started the engine after installation?

That is always a good practice, and cheap insurance....

Originally Posted by 601HP

My new user name, HTM101 allows a maximum 600x600 photo resolution. the 601HP user name allows a 1000x1000 resolution.

These photos were taken after driving the new engine 45 miles. Neither jetting or air bleeds had been changed from the "as received" state of tune provided by the assembler. Single plane intake and 2x4 carb set up.

[Detroit Bill]

This is ponderous. Post the photos. All the photos.

[601HP]

When the oil began belching from both valve covers, there was one breather on each valve cover and the oversize rear breather was in place. The rear manifold breather provides noticeably more open area for venting than the typical round breather.

I decided to add more portals to vent the excess crankcase pressure, and added another pair of valve cover breathers. Although the root problem still existed, this band aid eliminated the belching.

The photos are dated Aug. but the 2 extra breathers were added in early May.

[601HP]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I am not going to "take sides" on this because there is no way to gain anything. But I can say that some of the claims are pretty aggressive to be putting out in a public forum without real supporting information.

I spent a few years of my career working with piston rings and engine bearings on a rather large scale. At one point I had a hand in and was a frequent visitor in the failure analysis lab for a tier one OEM manufacturer of those parts.

Provide some well focused clear images of the piston skirts, piston rings, and bearings from this engine. No excuses for unfocused stuff - my cell phone can take amazingly good and clear pictures. If I can see the sides and gaps of the rings, the sides tops and skirts of the pistons, and the bearings - I might, maybe, be able to provide good information as to what went wrong. Or what did not.

Some of the stuff stated simply has to be repeated verbatim from the second engine guy, and is not an accurate assessment of how certain wear occurs - ie. ring debris does not get embedded into piston skirts from any normal or accelerated wear. We will discuss mechanical ring face failure if appropriate once I see your pictures.

Oil control and compression sealing are two nearly unrelated, but interdependent variables. You can have excellent compression sealing and poor oil control, or the opposite. But if you do something that mechanically fails the ring package, everything will go to hell very quickly.

I'm pleased to have your insight and experience. We'll all gain from your analyses and opinions. It will help with the overall education. Inclusion of photos of rings, pistons and bearings will be presented.
David

[601HP]

The oversize pushrods have been a months long subject of discussion and disagreement, as to the relevance of them and their relationship to the continual unsettling of the intake manifold. The mechanical interference appears aggressive. Some of the pushrods exhibit multiple contact areas.

The pushrods are tapered, the largest diameter is the center of the pushrod. That's a lot of lateral loading and unloading each time a rod makes contact. Math puts the cycling into the many thousands of times in a very short period.

These pushrods are the originals. They have 700+ miles on them.




These photos are of the 2nd set of pushrods that were installed in an attempt to reduce the amount of oil being transmitted to the valve train. They have about 135 miles on them.

[Barry_R]

So far...

The plug color does not mean a lot for mixture reading unless the engine was cut clean after a pull or pass down the track. But that one cylinder being bone white compared to the others would indicate that it was not "live" - you should have been able to hear/feel that, but its not always easy if you are not familiar with these things. It would have shown up on the EGT trace on my dyno - and is almost always a bad/damaged/loose spark plug or plug wire. Could be from shipping, or installation, or plain old bad luck - but not incriminating.

Pushrod rub is not as big of a deal as folks think as long as they do not get pushed out of position in the cup or seat. I once had some that I was working on eliminating and Kaase told me not to do it. Said it was like putting your finger on a tuning fork - took the harmonics out of the system. I think Manton specifies +/-.010 from a flat & smooth surface being acceptable - and trust me they move during operation. I would prefer not to have contact, but so far I am not seeing anything that would cause me to loose any sleep.

[Jamo]

Ok...threads over. Not taking sides, but I will use my own knowledge and experience under the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code...designed to protect both parties in such disputes in a "uniform" manner for states that adopt it) and say this...warranty was voided the minute the customer took the motor apart with another engine builder and failed to provide the original service provider an opportunity to review the situation. In essence, that action broke the chain of responsibility. The viewers here are now left with being faced with claims by the engine builder about how it was put together vs. claims by the customer about what was found tearing it down. A public forum is not a court of law, and, due to personal and/or business relationships, certainly not a neutral one.

Threadstarter voluntarily chose the actions he took...now he has to live with them without further redress, and certainly not by attempting to start and maintain a thread to "inform" others. There is nothing credible to inform other members with.

In the future, let me offer this "information" to anyone with a problem with either goods or services to do what is the only logical thing to do...provide the supplier of the goods or services an opportunity to inspect and replace or repair. If that fails to address the problem, take it to a mediator/arbitrator for alternative dispute resolution, or to a court of law.

The one thing that is not going to be allowed is any further longassed threads where one party attempts to complain about it here. I closed another thread and bounced a former member for a lengthy period for trying to do the same thing (again, complaining about it instead of allowing the builder any reasonable opportunity to address the situation), and we've done that before over the years. That is the consistent practice here and should not come to anyone's surprise.

What is changed? I no longer have the patience to babysit these situations and action will be taken sooner rather than later to end it.

Thread is closed. Any further attempt to bring this up again, by either of the parties or by any third party...I'll bouce your ass and I don't give a damn who it is.

PM or email me to complain about my actions, and I'm just as likely to bounce your ass. This is not a site protected by the Constitution, nor is it a democracy, so don't waste my time. I'm telling everyone to STFU, so that's as fair as it gets.

Fair warning has been given.