What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[Barry_R]

Its been a long time since I posted here - "life" has kept me a bit busy...

I can back up a few statements. Nobody has any aluminum blocks. I have not seen one shipped for months. I get promises - and unfortunately have repeated them to customers - and then I get no parts. If there were an alternate I would go to another supplier. But out of the FE block suppliers - Side Oiler Garage (former Genesis), Pond, Shelby, Dove, BBM - none of them have a block to ship. I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return.

We have a vacuum impregnation facility here in the Detroit area - out by the airport. Very nice guy who is justifiably proud of his services. Every single aluminum block I do will get impregnated from now on (Bill - your's was done too) after I had an issue a few years ago. The cost is added into the build, but I do not call it out because customer get nervous about a process the might not understand. This place does a bunch of military and OEM transmission stuff.

The weight savings is nice and I can fully understand the desire. The blocks themselves seem to be consistently inconsistent in quality. I have always been able to build them into good engines but they are always a challenge and I kind of agree with the sentiment - they should cost 20% more for labor because of the extra effort required. Every single fastener needs to be retightened after they run - the aluminum growth seems to loosen them all up. They leak - probably for the same reason. I suspect that the OEMs use better alloy and a much more sophisticated process for fasteners, seals and gaskets to avoid these problems.

The 427 stuff is definitely cool - given the choice I would prefer to build an iron block every time. We pretty much never have any issues with 390 based 445 builds, and we do them at a rate of two or three per month.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

But out of the FE block suppliers - Side Oiler Garage (former Genesis), Pond, Shelby, Dove, BBM - none of them have a block to ship.

It begs the question. Why isn't there a single new FE block anywhere? Was there a run of purchases (demand outstripped supply) and sellers were caught off guard? Are there manufacturing problems at every foundry? Or are the foundries really not interested in making 50-100 blocks per year when they have other larger orders that are higher priority because of size and fixed contracts.

From Brent's remarks, the lack of blocks has been a year long problem. These really are just rhetorical questions, but if I were building a Cobra, Mustang, Fairlane, I'd be a little upset because 352's, 390's, 427's and 428's just wouldn't do it for me at the prices these engines sell for.

[fordracing65]

From what I hear the foundries being used. the quality got so bad they had to look elsewhere which takes time and effort. It amazes me in this big world we live in nobody can make an aluminum fe block that is satisfactory for the consumer and builder. Kinda like tires for these cars. One company makes a good set Avon and that's it. Even Shelby changed foundries and they only make aluminum blocks.

[fordracing65]

Craft racing bought everything Pond had in aluminum and are using them for their complete engine builds. They won't sell just the block right now. They had 3 of the new run and said they looked fine. They have 8 more coming soon they said. BBM says end of January for their new aluminum block. But few have seen or used one so people are skeptical.

[Phx Mike]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

It begs the question. Why isn't there a single new FE block anywhere? Was there a run of purchases (demand outstripped supply) and sellers were caught off guard? Are there manufacturing problems at every foundry? Or are the foundries really not interested in making 50-100 blocks per year when they have other larger orders that are higher priority because of size and fixed contracts.

From Brent's remarks, the lack of blocks has been a year long problem. These really are just rhetorical questions, but if I were building a Cobra, Mustang, Fairlane, I'd be a little upset because 352's, 390's, 427's and 428's just wouldn't do it for me at the prices these engines sell for.

Aluminum sand castings are difficult - period. The weight saving benefits due to the superior strength to weight ratio of aluminum vs iron makes it an essential element in a modern car (fuel economy). But the big guys (OEM's) are able to spend a lot of time and money optimizing the part designs and casting processes to improve the yield of the parts. They have to do this in order for the economics to work (you can't survive the cost impact otherwise). It is more than just the alloy used - aluminum is poured at much lower temps than iron or steel or titanium castings and it cools quickly. If the mold designs and temp and the pour process are not perfect, you get splashing, asymmetric cooling and all kinds of other issues that result in voids. Some times you don't detect these voids until you start machining the casting and get a break-out. I see this in the aerospace industry also. Sometimes you can get 100 good parts in a row and then something very subtle changes and you can't seem to get a good part. Very stringent process control in the foundry is needed to minimize this. It is hard to justify this when you are making a few hundred parts per year.

None of this is the fault of or can be controlled by the engine builder. The foundry processes and basic part design are the drivers.

[blykins]

When there are not *high* quantities involved, pretty much anything is game.

I can receive 5 sets of heads and they can all be a different shade of "aluminum". Some are a little darker than others (which I kinda like LOL). I suppose that's from the mold release agent. I've also got different aluminum blocks in that were a different shade as well.

Fun stuff.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
It begs the question. Why isn't there a single new FE block anywhere? Was there a run of purchases (demand outstripped supply) and sellers were caught off guard? Are there manufacturing problems at every foundry? Or are the foundries really not interested in making 50-100 blocks per year when they have other larger orders that are higher priority because of size and fixed contracts.

From Brent's remarks, the lack of blocks has been a year long problem. These really are just rhetorical questions, but if I were building a Cobra, Mustang, Fairlane, I'd be a little upset because 352's, 390's, 427's and 428's just wouldn't do it for me at the prices these engines sell for.

I agree ! I really don't see the foundry getting excited just to do a 100 blocks . We have a little V6 Turbo block that cast in aluminum now to. Guys were crying to get someone to invest $1000's to get the build goin.. Ran a small batch an guess what !!!! Not many people can threw when it came to shellin out the $$$. These were goin for $4500. Never mind the $6k for a FE.
Sooo my car is goin up in value with an alum block !!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Blue66

We have a little V6 Turbo block that cast in aluminum now to. Guys were crying to get someone to invest $1000's to get the build goin.. Ran a small batch an guess what !!!! Not many people can threw when it came to shellin out the $$$. These were goin for $4500.

We saw that around here, year after year after year, when it came to the magnesium wheel issue. You have lots of guys that say "Oh yeah, I'd be interested in magnesium wheels." But then when someone tries to actually accumulate a little seed money to place an order, those birds disappear in to the bush. That's just life in the big city, and there's no shortage of bullshi! around these parts.

[Jaydee]

I remember years ago working on V6 Volvo who used a Renault v6. The casting was very thin near the oil galleries. Then when the cooling system wasn't maintained properly, it would corrode into the oil gallery and fill the entire cooling system with high oil pressure. Destroying the radiator, heater core and a hell of a mess to clean up. Just removing heads was tricky, if you bumped the sleeve it would break the paper gasket at the bottom of the sleeve.
JD

[eschaider]

I think you guys are way overthinking this issue. The brass tacks simply come down to;

1. How big is the real market for these blocks,

2. How much does it cost the entrepreneur to create the block,

3. Could he make more money with his money doing something else,

4. Like patrick so accurately pointed out

Originally Posted by patrickt

... But then when someone tries to actually accumulate a little seed money to place an order, those birds disappear in to the bush. That's just life in the big city, and there's no shortage of bullshi! around these parts.

It is sort of like Lucy, Charlie Brown and the football. Charlie Brown has yet to kick the football. The FE block sales phenom is exactly the same. With small volume you will never be able to get the quality that large production runs provide. If you loose you shirt once or twice (financially speaking) on one of these boon-doggles You're damn sure not likely to piss away another quarter million bucks — which might be low when you consider engineering, tooling and fixturing costs.

We and our market appetite are our own biggest enemies, in particular the guys who say they will buy and then flake out or the guys who can not come to grips with the costs involved with bringing one of these components to the market for resale.

This is not a technology problem. It is a market size problem, a cost to manufacture problem, and a flake out problem where someone is hot to trot, set to get and flakes out when it comes time to pony up the bucks. Think about it — the enthusiast and market size are the real problem.


Ed

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return.

Maybe Patrick has lost the ability to read and comprehend , but here's the difference. The buyers and their "seed money" are engine builders like Brent, Barry, Craft, Tom Lucas, etc. or Robert Pond. As Barry said earlier, he has paid for 5 blocks and doesn't have them yet. So, we're not talking about a bunch of finicky consumers of magnesium wheels. Most of us here building Cobras buy engines from engine builders. I didn't buy an aluminum block and then ship it off to an engine builder. I bought my engine block from the engine builder.

[fordracing65]

Shelby has blocks in stock. Just spoke with them

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Shelby has blocks in stock. Just spoke with them

They do make alloy small blocks. Did you ask about FE's?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

They do make alloy small blocks. Did you ask about FE's?

They meant these:

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

They meant these:

Exactly. "They have blocks in stock." I'm more partial to these, they're a bit closer in weight.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Exactly. "They have blocks in stock." I'm more partial to these, they're a bit closer in weight.

Well that is a nice looking garden. Yessirreee, could of come right off of HuffPo.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Maybe Patrick has lost the ability to read and comprehend , but here's the difference...

I'd rather stick with Ed's verbiage "Like patrick so accurately pointed out...."

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I'd rather stick with Ed's verbiage "Like patrick so accurately pointed out...."

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

au contraire mon amie -- The exact quote was "I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return." That does not mean he paid in full for all five. Rather, I read that to infer a small down payment with the balance due upon delivery.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

au contraire mon amie -- The exact quote was "I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return." That does not mean he paid in full for all five. Rather, I read that to infer a small down payment with the balance due upon delivery.

Then we have different interpretations. I understand it to mean he has paid for 5 blocks in full in advance. But either way, he has put cash up front, not words.