What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return.

Maybe Patrick has lost the ability to read and comprehend , but here's the difference. The buyers and their "seed money" are engine builders like Brent, Barry, Craft, Tom Lucas, etc. or Robert Pond. As Barry said earlier, he has paid for 5 blocks and doesn't have them yet. So, we're not talking about a bunch of finicky consumers of magnesium wheels. Most of us here building Cobras buy engines from engine builders. I didn't buy an aluminum block and then ship it off to an engine builder. I bought my engine block from the engine builder.

[fordracing65]

Shelby has blocks in stock. Just spoke with them

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Shelby has blocks in stock. Just spoke with them

They do make alloy small blocks. Did you ask about FE's?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

They do make alloy small blocks. Did you ask about FE's?

They meant these:

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

They meant these:

Exactly. "They have blocks in stock." I'm more partial to these, they're a bit closer in weight.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Exactly. "They have blocks in stock." I'm more partial to these, they're a bit closer in weight.

Well that is a nice looking garden. Yessirreee, could of come right off of HuffPo.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Maybe Patrick has lost the ability to read and comprehend , but here's the difference...

I'd rather stick with Ed's verbiage "Like patrick so accurately pointed out...."

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I'd rather stick with Ed's verbiage "Like patrick so accurately pointed out...."

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

au contraire mon amie -- The exact quote was "I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return." That does not mean he paid in full for all five. Rather, I read that to infer a small down payment with the balance due upon delivery.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

au contraire mon amie -- The exact quote was "I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return." That does not mean he paid in full for all five. Rather, I read that to infer a small down payment with the balance due upon delivery.

Then we have different interpretations. I understand it to mean he has paid for 5 blocks in full in advance. But either way, he has put cash up front, not words.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

But either way, he has put cash up front, not words.

Well, yes, point taken. If it's green, and has presidents on it, then that certainly speaks louder than CC posts.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm sure you would, but he's just parroting your inaccurate statement. Barry said he gave them real money for 5 blocks and, assuming they're BBM blocks and fully paid, then that's 5 x $3,500 or, for those folks that aren't mathematicians, that's $17,500. That's real money sitting in someone else's bank account, not named Barry.

I have a lot of respect for your opinions RodKnock, but on this one you are just missing the mark. The seed monies for the business were spent way in advance of the block order placed by the engine builder. There is a conservative $250K in engineering and tooling to make a block from dead scratch.

Once you get done with the sunk investment up front then you have to buy the minimum economic order quantity for the foundry not necessarily you! That number is between 50 and 100 blocks. Finish up the machine work, the freight, import duties (remember you can't get the quality casting in the US anymore) and you are somewhere north of minimally another $350/400K.

So, now you are in the tank for a half million+ for the first 50 to 100 blocks before you get any monies coming in for product.

Patrick is spot on and anyone with a spare half million+ laying around does not seem to be popping up to take advantage of the excellent business opportunity you seem to see, RodKnock.

This block business is fools gold — especially for FE's. We are basically the only guys that want them and we don't like to pay the price for them — not to mention the flake out factor is high.

This kind of a 'hobby' business only looks promising to uninformed people who are on the outside looking in that do not or can not think this business 'opportunity' and the attendant risks through start to finish.


Ed

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I have a lot of respect for your opinions RodKnock, but on this one you are just missing the mark. The seed monies for the business were spent way in advance of the block order placed by the engine builder. There is a conservative $250K in engineering and tooling to make a block from dead scratch.

Once you get done with the sunk investment up front then you have to buy the minimum economic order quantity for the foundry not necessarily you! That number is between 50 and 100 blocks. Finish up the machine work, the freight, import duties (remember you can't get the quality casting in the US anymore) and you are somewhere north of minimally another $350/400K.

So, now you are in the tank for a half million+ for the first 50 to 100 blocks before you get any monies coming in for product.

Patrick is spot on and anyone with a spare half million+ laying around does not seem to be popping up to take advantage of the excellent business opportunity you seem to see, RodKnock.

This block business is fools gold — especially for FE's. We are basically the only guys that want them and we don't like to pay the price for them — not to mention the flake out factor is high.

This kind of a 'hobby' business only looks promising to uninformed people who are on the outside looking in that do not or can not think this business 'opportunity' and the attendant risks through start to finish.


Ed

Ed, first I never said anything about making engine blocks being a good business. NEVER said it. Period.

Second, Shelby and Pond have been selling their blocks for over a decade. Not sure when BBM or Side Oiler Garage started their businesses, but the Shelby and Pond designs, forms, etc. and whatever else you need has long since been completed.

Third, according to Brent and Barry, there aren't any blocks available today. None. For over a year. But Barry, and I'm sure other engine builders like Craft, Brent, Tom Lucas have put down deposits at least for new blocks. That is all I'm pointing out. Money has been sent somewhere from an engine builder to an engine block manufacturer. Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

No, I'd rather concentrate on the "Patrick is spot on..." part of the thread.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, I'd rather concentrate on the "Patrick is spot on..." part of the thread.

And you're not.

I still think Barry has fully paid for 5 blocks, because he's Barry, one of the top engine builders here in these United States of America. He's been buying blocks for what, 10, 20, 30 years. How about Pond? Or Craft? I'm sure these guys have given cash to the block foundries/manufacturers, not just some flake like me.

[olddog]

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.


Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

We are doing that right now with LS engines. Machining them from billet. The first one is done and has been shipped to a customer. FE engines? Same problem as the castings. Not enough interest to spend 6 months designing the block and developing a program for it to make it cost effective. Kirkham did it already on a vertical. That is a pretty hard way to do it. Maybe he will make more and sell them?

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Ed, first I never said anything about making engine blocks being a good business. NEVER said it. Period.

Second, Shelby and Pond have been selling their blocks for over a decade. Not sure when BBM or Side Oiler Garage started their businesses, but the Shelby and Pond designs, forms, etc. and whatever else you need has long since been completed.

Third, according to Brent and Barry, there aren't any blocks available today. None. For over a year. But Barry, and I'm sure other engine builders like Craft, Brent, Tom Lucas have put down deposits at least for new blocks. That is all I'm pointing out. Money has been sent somewhere from an engine builder to an engine block manufacturer. Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

I didn't mean to imply you represented any block manufacturing business as either good or bad. I did not see that in your post. To suggest that I did is inaccurate.

I did describe some of the obvious sunk costs of development so readers could better distinguish and not confuse them with deposits made in advance of a purchase. The actual expense to someone typically the guy who is offering the block for sale actually does exceed the $500K number I suggested for a single production run.

I am confident your representation of a year of no product availability is correct. While I have not fact checked the time period I also see no reason for you to mislead us with respect to that fact.

At the time the deposits were made I suspect the individual buyers knew the product was not in inventory and would represent a back order. They had, as others and perhaps you also have pointed out, other block sources with inventory that they could have purchased from. They made a choice to buy from a provider that was out of stock but would have inventory in the future.

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market, harvest all the profits and glory associated with saving the day for everyone else.

I believe the reasons no one has are;

a. The task is not easy,
b. The task is not inexpensive as some would have you believe,
c. The task has a higher probability of failure than most will accept
d. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain — and it feels good.

We certainly have no lack of complainers and certainly an abundance of people who apparently 'know' what is wrong and how to fix it — so where are their block offerings??


Ed

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by eschaider

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market...
Ed

It's been done, Ed...sort of. The Ford 351 Cleveland was a fantastic motor and had to be discontinued here in the US waaaay too early in its life (thank goodness our Australian friends had more time with them, and at a time when there were not too many environmental barriers). At least two individuals have tried to bring an alloy Cleveland block to market and, IIRC, one of the parties did bring a few. His problem involved limited financial reserves and a fairly limited target population, so I don't think the production continues.

The endeavor is difficult enough that few feel compelled to pursue the task and even fewer manage to succeed.

Cheers!!

Doug