What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Ed, first I never said anything about making engine blocks being a good business. NEVER said it. Period.

Second, Shelby and Pond have been selling their blocks for over a decade. Not sure when BBM or Side Oiler Garage started their businesses, but the Shelby and Pond designs, forms, etc. and whatever else you need has long since been completed.

Third, according to Brent and Barry, there aren't any blocks available today. None. For over a year. But Barry, and I'm sure other engine builders like Craft, Brent, Tom Lucas have put down deposits at least for new blocks. That is all I'm pointing out. Money has been sent somewhere from an engine builder to an engine block manufacturer. Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

I didn't mean to imply you represented any block manufacturing business as either good or bad. I did not see that in your post. To suggest that I did is inaccurate.

I did describe some of the obvious sunk costs of development so readers could better distinguish and not confuse them with deposits made in advance of a purchase. The actual expense to someone typically the guy who is offering the block for sale actually does exceed the $500K number I suggested for a single production run.

I am confident your representation of a year of no product availability is correct. While I have not fact checked the time period I also see no reason for you to mislead us with respect to that fact.

At the time the deposits were made I suspect the individual buyers knew the product was not in inventory and would represent a back order. They had, as others and perhaps you also have pointed out, other block sources with inventory that they could have purchased from. They made a choice to buy from a provider that was out of stock but would have inventory in the future.

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market, harvest all the profits and glory associated with saving the day for everyone else.

I believe the reasons no one has are;

a. The task is not easy,
b. The task is not inexpensive as some would have you believe,
c. The task has a higher probability of failure than most will accept
d. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain — and it feels good.

We certainly have no lack of complainers and certainly an abundance of people who apparently 'know' what is wrong and how to fix it — so where are their block offerings??


Ed

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by eschaider

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market...
Ed

It's been done, Ed...sort of. The Ford 351 Cleveland was a fantastic motor and had to be discontinued here in the US waaaay too early in its life (thank goodness our Australian friends had more time with them, and at a time when there were not too many environmental barriers). At least two individuals have tried to bring an alloy Cleveland block to market and, IIRC, one of the parties did bring a few. His problem involved limited financial reserves and a fairly limited target population, so I don't think the production continues.

The endeavor is difficult enough that few feel compelled to pursue the task and even fewer manage to succeed.

Cheers!!

Doug

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

It's been done, Ed...sort of. The Ford 351 Cleveland was a fantastic motor and had to be discontinued here in the US waaaay too early in its life (thank goodness our Australian friends had more time with them, and at a time when there were not too many environmental barriers). At least two individuals have tried to bring an alloy Cleveland block to market and, IIRC, one of the parties did bring a few. His problem involved limited financial reserves and a fairly limited target population, so I don't think the production continues.

The endeavor is difficult enough that few feel compelled to pursue the task and even fewer manage to succeed.

Cheers!!

Doug

My point exactly Doug. I couldn't agree with you more. It is a daunting task both financially and from a manufacturing perspective .

Ed

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I didn't mean to imply you represented any block manufacturing business as either good or bad. I did not see that in your post. To suggest that I did is inaccurate.

I did describe some of the obvious sunk costs of development so readers could better distinguish and not confuse them with deposits made in advance of a purchase. The actual expense to someone typically the guy who is offering the block for sale actually does exceed the $500K number I suggested for a single production run.

I am confident your representation of a year of no product availability is correct. While I have not fact checked the time period I also see no reason for you to mislead us with respect to that fact.

At the time the deposits were made I suspect the individual buyers knew the product was not in inventory and would represent a back order. They had, as others and perhaps you also have pointed out, other block sources with inventory that they could have purchased from. They made a choice to buy from a provider that was out of stock but would have inventory in the future.

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market, harvest all the profits and glory associated with saving the day for everyone else.

I believe the reasons no one has are;

a. The task is not easy,
b. The task is not inexpensive as some would have you believe,
c. The task has a higher probability of failure than most will accept
d. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain — and it feels good.

We certainly have no lack of complainers and certainly an abundance of people who apparently 'know' what is wrong and how to fix it — so where are their block offerings??


Ed

Ed, I was just arguing with Patrick about whether it was like the mag wheel situation, where there were a lot of talkers or folks, like Barry R for example, had actually put money down. Barry has his cash down.

I didn't say that there were no FE blocks available, Brent and Barry, professional engine builders said that there weren't any available. Not me. Them. And no one is complaining. Certainly I'm not. My Shelby block is now rare and desirable.

More blocks are being made. Orders are in and whether it costs $500K now to start from scratch (or not), honestly, I really don't care. I have my Shelby block.

I do feel bad about those folks building cars and needing FE engine blocks.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Ed, I was just arguing with Patrick about whether it was like the mag wheel situation, where there were a lot of talkers or folks, like Barry R for example, had actually put money down. Barry has his cash down.

I didn't say that there were no FE blocks available, Brent and Barry, professional engine builders said that there weren't any available. Not me. Them. And no one is complaining. Certainly I'm not. My Shelby block is now rare and desirable.

More blocks are being made. Orders are in and whether it costs $500K now to start from scratch (or not), honestly, I really don't care. I have my Shelby block.

I do feel bad about those folks building cars and needing FE engine blocks.

Didn't mean to woof on you RodKnock and as I reread my post portions sounded that way, so if you read it the same I owe you an apology.

That said the challenge in initially bringing a block to market is non-trivial both financially and engineering-wise. Re-orders can be equally challenging if the original price point didn't provide enough margin to properly float the business boat between manufacturing cycles.

With limited market demand and high cost of goods in the build cycle, a steady production supply can become a financial burden. I would not be surprised to see the number of suppliers dwindle down to just two and block pricing begin to escalate in the future.


Ed

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Didn't mean to woof on you RodKnock and as I reread my post portions sounded that way, so if you read it the same I owe you an apology.

That said the challenge in initially bringing a block to market is non-trivial both financially and engineering-wise. Re-orders can be equally challenging if the original price point didn't provide enough margin to properly float the business boat between manufacturing cycles.

With limited market demand and high cost of goods in the build cycle, a steady production supply can become a financial burden. I would not be surprised to see the number of suppliers dwindle down to just two and block pricing begin to escalate in the future.


Ed

No worries. BTW, since I purchased my block back in 2007-2008, the price of the Pond block has increased about $1,000+ and the Shelby block has increased about $2,000+. The Pond block is $1,500 cheaper than the Shelby block now, but when I bought my Shelby block the delta was about half that. The Pond block makes way more sense today.

[fordracing65]

A BBM aluminum block is priced at $4800. When they get them.