What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I have a lot of respect for your opinions RodKnock, but on this one you are just missing the mark. The seed monies for the business were spent way in advance of the block order placed by the engine builder. There is a conservative $250K in engineering and tooling to make a block from dead scratch.

Once you get done with the sunk investment up front then you have to buy the minimum economic order quantity for the foundry not necessarily you! That number is between 50 and 100 blocks. Finish up the machine work, the freight, import duties (remember you can't get the quality casting in the US anymore) and you are somewhere north of minimally another $350/400K.

So, now you are in the tank for a half million+ for the first 50 to 100 blocks before you get any monies coming in for product.

Patrick is spot on and anyone with a spare half million+ laying around does not seem to be popping up to take advantage of the excellent business opportunity you seem to see, RodKnock.

This block business is fools gold — especially for FE's. We are basically the only guys that want them and we don't like to pay the price for them — not to mention the flake out factor is high.

This kind of a 'hobby' business only looks promising to uninformed people who are on the outside looking in that do not or can not think this business 'opportunity' and the attendant risks through start to finish.


Ed

Ed, first I never said anything about making engine blocks being a good business. NEVER said it. Period.

Second, Shelby and Pond have been selling their blocks for over a decade. Not sure when BBM or Side Oiler Garage started their businesses, but the Shelby and Pond designs, forms, etc. and whatever else you need has long since been completed.

Third, according to Brent and Barry, there aren't any blocks available today. None. For over a year. But Barry, and I'm sure other engine builders like Craft, Brent, Tom Lucas have put down deposits at least for new blocks. That is all I'm pointing out. Money has been sent somewhere from an engine builder to an engine block manufacturer. Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

No, I'd rather concentrate on the "Patrick is spot on..." part of the thread.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, I'd rather concentrate on the "Patrick is spot on..." part of the thread.

And you're not.

I still think Barry has fully paid for 5 blocks, because he's Barry, one of the top engine builders here in these United States of America. He's been buying blocks for what, 10, 20, 30 years. How about Pond? Or Craft? I'm sure these guys have given cash to the block foundries/manufacturers, not just some flake like me.

[olddog]

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.


Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Patent issues I believe?

They'll be 3D printing them soon enough.

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

It was a problem with sleeving the blocks. There was a patent problem on how they do it or the sleeves they used.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Patent issues? Aren't they all just duplicating a sideoiler or 427 top-oiler engine, which was originally built roughly circa 1962-1964 (or whatever year)? Don't patents sunset after 20 years? I'm sure someone will correct me.

I just think between building Kirkham Coupes and Cobras and taking on the Shelby orders, they're just too busy for a alloy block. They do make billet aluminum Girling calipers now.

Patent issues with (darton?) cylinder sleeves? I'm NOT across it, just rumours and whispers. Others are better placed to advise.

I certainly was keen to build my engine using one of their blocks, but how long can one wait...

[Barry_R]

Lord I wish it was "just a small deposit".
Much closer to full retail price...
It is not BBM (he makes a perfectly fine part, but does not sell directly to me)

I felt like I had no choice but to get in line...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Lord I wish it was "just a small deposit".
Much closer to full retail price...
It is not BBM (he makes a perfectly fine part, but does not sell directly to me)

I felt like I had no choice but to get in line...

Well I'm certainly sorry to hear that. On Dimis' patent thingy, it's not my area of expertise, but I can at least look it up for you geniuses.

US Patent for Cylinder sleeve with coolant groove Patent (Patent # 6,799,541 issued October 5, 2004) - Justia Patents Search

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Lord I wish it was "just a small deposit".
Much closer to full retail price...
It is not BBM (he makes a perfectly fine part, but does not sell directly to me)

I felt like I had no choice but to get in line...

Hey Patrick <insert emoji of "wiggling bare a$$">

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Patent issues with (darton?) cylinder sleeves? I'm NOT across it, just rumours and whispers. Others are better placed to advise.

I certainly was keen to build my engine using one of their blocks, but how long can one wait...

I talked with Dave about this when I stopped in for a tour while I was in the area in August. He said that Kirkham originally had set up a deal with Darton, but then the CEO of Darton decided that the deal was not in his interest at a later point. However David has a different cylinder liner idea based on a Bristol engine design. The current problem is that they are just too busy at this point with other work to do the redesign work on the block.

Also while I was they were machining an aluminum block for Shelby, so presumably Shelby delivered at least one block this year.

[jkg2101]

In response to the original question on this thread, I am currently building my kirkham (finally received it!).

I purchased an assembled 'short block' from Blair Patrick (who I might add is very knowledgeable and did a great job, and is a true gentleman). He and I agreed right from the beginning to go with an iron block. I was able to get one of the BBM's in iron.

I am not thrilled about the offshore casting, but doing my part to support USA businesses.

I did not and don't personally see any reasonable reason to want aluminum. i recognize it may be more prone to some build trouble, and it is more expensive. I honestly don't think it affects resale price (but if I was in this for resale, then I have other problems anyway...)

I agree that many here have admitted it is more emotion and less logic that lead them to aluminum. My car will be every bit as nice with a well done sideoiler build in iron.


I do run aluminum heads and intake, for a variety of reasons (weight savings and nothing comparable in iron available).

justin

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Ps. I like it when Patrick's in these moods. It entertains me.

In schools today, educators call it "oppositional defiant disorder" (ODD) and give the kids meds. Patrick already take too many meds. He must, because he thinks his Cobra looks good in Desert Storm Camo beige and "burps up" ancient Buddhist philosophies.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by olddog

What ever happened with Dave developing a CNC program to machine a 427 FE out of a billet?

Generally speaking, other than saving a ton of money on material and labor, casting sucks compared to a piece machined from a billet. The CNC machine has reversed this in some application. Some parts are now cheaper to machine on a CNC rather than cast them.

Granted, I wouldn't have thought a 427 FE would be cheaper to make on a CNC, but Dave is a pretty sharp guy. Anyway, it sure would be higher quality.

We are doing that right now with LS engines. Machining them from billet. The first one is done and has been shipped to a customer. FE engines? Same problem as the castings. Not enough interest to spend 6 months designing the block and developing a program for it to make it cost effective. Kirkham did it already on a vertical. That is a pretty hard way to do it. Maybe he will make more and sell them?

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Ed, first I never said anything about making engine blocks being a good business. NEVER said it. Period.

Second, Shelby and Pond have been selling their blocks for over a decade. Not sure when BBM or Side Oiler Garage started their businesses, but the Shelby and Pond designs, forms, etc. and whatever else you need has long since been completed.

Third, according to Brent and Barry, there aren't any blocks available today. None. For over a year. But Barry, and I'm sure other engine builders like Craft, Brent, Tom Lucas have put down deposits at least for new blocks. That is all I'm pointing out. Money has been sent somewhere from an engine builder to an engine block manufacturer. Patrick said buyers are flakes. I said Barry isn't your typical flakey buyer. That is my only point. You're on a complete tangent.

I didn't mean to imply you represented any block manufacturing business as either good or bad. I did not see that in your post. To suggest that I did is inaccurate.

I did describe some of the obvious sunk costs of development so readers could better distinguish and not confuse them with deposits made in advance of a purchase. The actual expense to someone typically the guy who is offering the block for sale actually does exceed the $500K number I suggested for a single production run.

I am confident your representation of a year of no product availability is correct. While I have not fact checked the time period I also see no reason for you to mislead us with respect to that fact.

At the time the deposits were made I suspect the individual buyers knew the product was not in inventory and would represent a back order. They had, as others and perhaps you also have pointed out, other block sources with inventory that they could have purchased from. They made a choice to buy from a provider that was out of stock but would have inventory in the future.

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market, harvest all the profits and glory associated with saving the day for everyone else.

I believe the reasons no one has are;

a. The task is not easy,
b. The task is not inexpensive as some would have you believe,
c. The task has a higher probability of failure than most will accept
d. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain — and it feels good.

We certainly have no lack of complainers and certainly an abundance of people who apparently 'know' what is wrong and how to fix it — so where are their block offerings??


Ed

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by eschaider

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market...
Ed

It's been done, Ed...sort of. The Ford 351 Cleveland was a fantastic motor and had to be discontinued here in the US waaaay too early in its life (thank goodness our Australian friends had more time with them, and at a time when there were not too many environmental barriers). At least two individuals have tried to bring an alloy Cleveland block to market and, IIRC, one of the parties did bring a few. His problem involved limited financial reserves and a fairly limited target population, so I don't think the production continues.

The endeavor is difficult enough that few feel compelled to pursue the task and even fewer manage to succeed.

Cheers!!

Doug

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

It's been done, Ed...sort of. The Ford 351 Cleveland was a fantastic motor and had to be discontinued here in the US waaaay too early in its life (thank goodness our Australian friends had more time with them, and at a time when there were not too many environmental barriers). At least two individuals have tried to bring an alloy Cleveland block to market and, IIRC, one of the parties did bring a few. His problem involved limited financial reserves and a fairly limited target population, so I don't think the production continues.

The endeavor is difficult enough that few feel compelled to pursue the task and even fewer manage to succeed.

Cheers!!

Doug

My point exactly Doug. I couldn't agree with you more. It is a daunting task both financially and from a manufacturing perspective .

Ed

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by eschaider

I didn't mean to imply you represented any block manufacturing business as either good or bad. I did not see that in your post. To suggest that I did is inaccurate.

I did describe some of the obvious sunk costs of development so readers could better distinguish and not confuse them with deposits made in advance of a purchase. The actual expense to someone typically the guy who is offering the block for sale actually does exceed the $500K number I suggested for a single production run.

I am confident your representation of a year of no product availability is correct. While I have not fact checked the time period I also see no reason for you to mislead us with respect to that fact.

At the time the deposits were made I suspect the individual buyers knew the product was not in inventory and would represent a back order. They had, as others and perhaps you also have pointed out, other block sources with inventory that they could have purchased from. They made a choice to buy from a provider that was out of stock but would have inventory in the future.

If everyone is so put out by the absence of product availability and you genuinely believe the sunk costs of product design and manufacturing are not borne by the manufacturer why don't one of you guys with all the answers jump in an bring the blocks to market, harvest all the profits and glory associated with saving the day for everyone else.

I believe the reasons no one has are;

a. The task is not easy,
b. The task is not inexpensive as some would have you believe,
c. The task has a higher probability of failure than most will accept
d. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain — and it feels good.

We certainly have no lack of complainers and certainly an abundance of people who apparently 'know' what is wrong and how to fix it — so where are their block offerings??


Ed

Ed, I was just arguing with Patrick about whether it was like the mag wheel situation, where there were a lot of talkers or folks, like Barry R for example, had actually put money down. Barry has his cash down.

I didn't say that there were no FE blocks available, Brent and Barry, professional engine builders said that there weren't any available. Not me. Them. And no one is complaining. Certainly I'm not. My Shelby block is now rare and desirable.

More blocks are being made. Orders are in and whether it costs $500K now to start from scratch (or not), honestly, I really don't care. I have my Shelby block.

I do feel bad about those folks building cars and needing FE engine blocks.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Ed, I was just arguing with Patrick about whether it was like the mag wheel situation, where there were a lot of talkers or folks, like Barry R for example, had actually put money down. Barry has his cash down.

I didn't say that there were no FE blocks available, Brent and Barry, professional engine builders said that there weren't any available. Not me. Them. And no one is complaining. Certainly I'm not. My Shelby block is now rare and desirable.

More blocks are being made. Orders are in and whether it costs $500K now to start from scratch (or not), honestly, I really don't care. I have my Shelby block.

I do feel bad about those folks building cars and needing FE engine blocks.

Didn't mean to woof on you RodKnock and as I reread my post portions sounded that way, so if you read it the same I owe you an apology.

That said the challenge in initially bringing a block to market is non-trivial both financially and engineering-wise. Re-orders can be equally challenging if the original price point didn't provide enough margin to properly float the business boat between manufacturing cycles.

With limited market demand and high cost of goods in the build cycle, a steady production supply can become a financial burden. I would not be surprised to see the number of suppliers dwindle down to just two and block pricing begin to escalate in the future.


Ed