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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2021, 06:51 PM
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Default Common sense

A very good way to look at it. More moving parts, more chance for failure.

Fred

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz64 View Post
Solid flat tappet camshaft for me. Roller cams are more maintenance, and more chance of failure. Hydraulics are even worse.

I have replaced many hydraulic cams, (flat and roller) for parts failure.

Many more than the handful of flat solid cam failures, that I can still count.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2021, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton View Post
...went to solid flat tappet cams and never looked back...But nothing beats that .025-.027 gap sound on the Ford FE engines....
So that's Jerry, Brent, Gary, Patrick (and me). I've not seen that much support for solid flat tappet cams in one place fora lot of years.
edit: and Fred

Cheers!
Glen

Last edited by xb-60; 03-01-2021 at 07:01 PM.. Reason: edit
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2021, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
So that's Jerry, Brent, Gary, Patrick (and me). I've not seen that much support for solid flat tappet cams in one place fora lot of years.
edit: and Fred

Cheers!
Glen
Well, I will say this....if it were a drilled block, I would be a little more favorable toward a solid roller with pressure fed lifters. Most Cobras don't see enough miles to wear a high dollar set of pressure fed lifters out.

However, if the block isn't drilled, there aren't too many choices and a solid flat tappet was made for that scenario.

I have my solid flats made a little differently than most guys though. They are nitrided, I use tool steel lifters, and I have them ground with extra lobe taper.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2021, 06:15 AM
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Lobe taper is a very important consideration---with rollers the cam lobes don't have any base angle to rotate the lifters and then of course without that taper the cam doesn't want to stay BACK in the cam tunnel ----It requires a thrust plate and oiling mods to lube the front gear/block area and without that the load from oil pump and distributor drive will cause the cam to move forward and backwards---this will also then wipe out the gears as the mesh angles don't remain correctly constant-----

I also once modded a Holman-Moody marine block with 16 -3 tubes to the lifter bosses so I could put a hydraulic lifter cam in it for my 1966 Comet GT390------but before I got it together they came out with the 428CJ and I was able to get one in a Torino------it ran so good that we then put the 427 ( now also with a 428 crank ) into John Keelings 1969 Ford F150 plus 3 dueces and CJ hood scoop for our dragster push truck---ran very nice and did it ever come on good when those 3 dueces opened on the fire up road-------
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2021, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
So that's Jerry, Brent, Gary, Patrick (and me). I've not seen that much support for solid flat tappet cams in one place fora lot of years.
edit: and Fred

Cheers!
Glen
I've got a solid roller in my FE, my next cam will definitely be a flat tappet!!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2021, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by blykins View Post
Well, I guess if you have to be anal about a sentence, that's one that's ok to be anal about....

However, in comparison to a solid roller, a flat tappet will seem to last forever.

Hydraulic rollers will too. Hundreds of thousands of miles.

Lash and spring pressure will kill a solid roller lifter.
I am no engine builder just curious would tool steal for lifters wear out the cam being harder I assume that is that why the cam is being nitrated and if that is the case how good are nitrated cams.Not being anal just curious .
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Old 03-03-2021, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hauss View Post
I am no engine builder just curious would tool steal for lifters wear out the cam being harder I assume that is that why the cam is being nitrated and if that is the case how good are nitrated cams.Not being anal just curious .
No, it doesn't wear the cam. In a flat tappet scenario, that's the best combination of parts you can have, aside from a billet cam and ceramic lifters ($$$$$$)
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Old 03-03-2021, 04:08 AM
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By tool steel, are you referring to a type of Stellite alloy?

Last edited by sd427; 03-03-2021 at 04:11 AM..
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2021, 04:19 AM
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By tool steel, are you referring to a type of Stellite alloy?
No, they are made of M2 tool steel.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins View Post
I believe Blair Patrick can.

A nitrided solid flat tappet with tool steel lifters would break in really easy though and would last forever.
What are your thoughts on Crower's 'Camsaver' or 'Coolface' solid lifters, or EDM lifters from other manufacturers?

http://www.crower.com/media/pdf/2008b/140-141.pdf
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2021, 09:16 AM
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They are all I use for flat tappet. I use the Camsaver lifters for hydraulics and EDM for solids.

However, the extra oiling doesn’t work with a block that’s not drilled.
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by blykins View Post
They are all I use for flat tappet. I use the Camsaver lifters for hydraulics and EDM for solids.

However, the extra oiling doesn’t work with a block that’s not drilled.
Good point - no oil gallery to feed the Camsavers or EDM lifters. Where oil galleries are present then, it seems like Camsaver hydraulic lifters are a good alternative to hydraulic rollers.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a 385 series and, of course, I've seen where some people have concerns about pushrod angularity with hydraulic roller lifters. I'm still leaning toward the rollers, even though I'm likely to end up with a cam around 0.600" valve / 0.350" lobe lift and 230°/240° duration @ 0.050".
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:27 AM
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Brian,

Some companies make extreme duty rollers that use brass instead of the needle bearings in the rollers. They supposedly last twice as long as the needle bearing rollers.

Jim
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Old 03-03-2021, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cycleguy55 View Post
Good point - no oil gallery to feed the Camsavers or EDM lifters. Where oil galleries are present then, it seems like Camsaver hydraulic lifters are a good alternative to hydraulic rollers.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a 385 series and, of course, I've seen where some people have concerns about pushrod angularity with hydraulic roller lifters. I'm still leaning toward the rollers, even though I'm likely to end up with a cam around 0.600" valve / 0.350" lobe lift and 230°/240° duration @ 0.050".
I have no issues with hydraulic rollers (or any rollers) in my 385 series engines. A .600" lift cam is pretty mild these days, I usually run a minimum of .630" lift and on up.

My solid rollers for pulling engines will go up to 1" lift with a roller cam.
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Old 03-03-2021, 02:23 PM
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Brian,

Some companies make extreme duty rollers that use brass instead of the needle bearings in the rollers. They supposedly last twice as long as the needle bearing rollers.

Jim
Yes, that is a much better option these days. One factory engine (Captiva diesel) with roller followers (OHC) which suffer from needle bearing failure have revised followers with bushed rollers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins View Post
I have no issues with hydraulic rollers (or any rollers) in my 385 series engines. A .600" lift cam is pretty mild these days, I usually run a minimum of .630" lift and on up.

My solid rollers for pulling engines will go up to 1" lift with a roller cam.
One of the biggest benefits of roller cams, where a flat tappet cannot compete.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2021, 05:02 PM
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Hello Dwight.

Normally I just enjoy reading these threads and do not interject as there are many here that have far more knowledge than I but just for the sake of conversation here is my observations.

Allow me to lean on your points of importance such as low maintenance and the way you plan to operate the vehicle. Based on your description of events you plan to participate in. All that considered the question from my perspective is why? (Why) pertaining to the need to run a solid roller cam. What advantage does it serve verses it's limitations? Given the operation of your car running a large enough cam to really take advantage of the solid roller doesn't add up. I don't know what size of cam you want to use but given your driving description it should run duration @ .050 intake of 250-260 degrees. With a lift of .600. (That given the heads you are running will be able to take advantage of that size of cam. But that is not your question?) At this size of cam a solid flat tappet verses the power advantage of a solid roller is very slight. And the life cycle of a solid roller will be considerably less and require much more attention to avoid potential failure. Solid rollers with aggressive lobes (which is the only reason to run one) require much more durable ancillary parts that are expensive and will not live all that long. Heavy valve springs, much less valve seat life, rocker arm life, stress to the timing chain, and bronze distributor gear life all will play a factor in the life cycle of your engine and maintenance schedules. So if your motivation for a solid roller cam is extra power you will not have much of a benefit. Especially verses costs and maintenance.

Since your block is designed to run only solid lifters a discussion about hydraulic lifter is mute.

In summary, a solid flat tappet, properly broke in with proper oil type will give a great power, cost less than 1/2 the parts needed to run a solid roller and live longer. Plus maintenance is considerably less.

One more point so you don't think that I am bias to flat tappets. I like solid rollers and run one in my Cobra but I am willing to live with the results and my cam is huge. I just think, again given your operating environment a solid flat tappet is better.

Regards
Phil
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Old 03-03-2021, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins View Post
I have no issues with hydraulic rollers (or any rollers) in my 385 series engines. A .600" lift cam is pretty mild these days, I usually run a minimum of .630" lift and on up.

My solid rollers for pulling engines will go up to 1" lift with a roller cam.
I'm looking for good midrange power band with maximum 6,000 RPM. This is much more a cruiser than a racer.

1" valve lift is hard to comprehend. LOL

Thanks.
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Old 03-04-2021, 03:55 AM
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I'm looking for good midrange power band with maximum 6,000 RPM. This is much more a cruiser than a racer.

1" valve lift is hard to comprehend. LOL

Thanks.
Be happy to help you out with a cam when you decide it's time to buy one.
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Old 03-04-2021, 10:53 PM
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Solid flat tappet cams worked just fine for a hundred years or so.

But no they won't work?
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Old 03-05-2021, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark O'Neal View Post
Solid flat tappet cams worked just fine for a hundred years or so.

But no they won't work?
The problem, of course, is that many have had problems with lifter failures or cam lobes being wiped out with flat tappet cams. There could be a number of factors:
  1. Modern oils no longer having ZDDP levels that they once had - even if they have other anti-wear additives
  2. Materials being used may not be as good as they once were
  3. Proper break-in procedures may not be properly followed
  4. Any combination or all of the above.

Combine the above with higher lift and spring pressures and the problem is exacerbated.
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