Shelby Aluminum

[bret a ewing]

Steelcomp,

Please read original (opening) thread. Horsepower is 655.2.

Regards, Bret.

[sgianino]

Steelcomp,
Very close.......Its Salvatore Gianino or you can call me Sal or if you like Sam thats O.K. to

[steelcomp]

Apologies to Bret...I had read the second and third threads and not seen that THEY were in error. I'm still suspicious of that kind of power w/ 10.5:1 and an 800 rpm idle. 655 is certainly more "possible" than 760, but not much under those conditions.

Mike,
Nice of you to drop in! Thanks for the back up. Hope you're doing well!

Tim,
Thanks for the positive input. I've done all those things I asked if you had, many many times on many different types of engines. I've built everything from a 292 concourse resto to 6000 hp TF motors, including a number of FE's. I've stated my case throughout this post (go back and read some) and still haven't heard anyone dispute what I wrote with more than an emotional arguement. With today's technology we're getting 1300-1400 hp out of carbureted 500" motors. Yes, they're ProStock Drag motors, but turn'em down a little and 1000 streetable hp isn't unheard of. My choice for a good production style motor would be the 385 series 429/460. I can give you a list a mile long why that motor shines above the FE and BBC, strictly from a design standpoint, but I don't have time this am. This business is all about passion. It's all about spending YOUR time and YOUR effort where it best suites your needs, and makes YOU happy. I think it's cool that there's so much interest in the ol' FE, but get off this board, and step away from the Cobra world, which by comparison is pretty small, and you'll never hear another word about an FE. My comments aren't to be meant or taken personal, although I know they hit home a little, I'm just trying to keep things real about the power figures that I think are inflated, and then things go in different directions and things are said, and so on.

Flow numbers are such a small part of how a head performa and I can't go in to all that here, either, so that arguement dosen't hold water. Besides, I've NEVER seen an FE head flow 400cfm. That's common place in BBC as-cast heads now days. But the chamber shapes and designs play as much a part of that as anything.

Gotta go!

[misfit41]

Steelcomp,
Your correct much of my argument is from passion,I just love the old motors,and hate 385's,I've tried to like them,but I just cant,I know they are cheap power nowadays ,but there heavy and ugly ,and dont sound so good, and please no offense meant to anyone,thats just my opinion,I suppose I formed it in my teens when I worked at a small ford dealership while going to Ford Tech school,they were considered a boat anchor then,still overshadowed by fe's,I realize given the epa regulations imposed at the time,it wasnt a fair shake,but it dosent matter,my mind is set,I like my ice scream chocolate and my fords with big wide intakes,too late to change now.
I havent the technical knowledge to debate any of what you said,and have no doubts it is true,but I still believe for an average guy{shade tree type} in an average world and pump gas,an fe is hard to beat ,up to its limits I suppose,for maybe 3500 to 4k you can take an old junk yard 390 and get 400+ bullet proof horsepower,a motor anyone can assemble,,thats pretty cool.
ps,,I HATE sbc crate motors in street rods too,,,just FYI,,
have a great day,,Tim

[ToyCollector]

Can we get someone with 20,000 miles on a KC FE to add to this thread and also talk about reliability? Does anyone know who has the most miles on one of his "700"HP monsters?

[BANDIT 1]

Originally posted by steelcomp


. My choice for a good production style motor would be the 385 series 429/460. I can give you a list a mile long why that motor shines above the FE and BBC, strictly from a design standpoint, but I don't have time this am. This business is all about passion. It's all about spending YOUR time and YOUR effort where it best suites your needs, and makes YOU happy. I think it's cool that there's so much interest in the ol' FE, but get off this board, and step away from the Cobra world, which by comparison is pretty small, and you'll never hear another word about an FE.

Sometimes the facts are hard to live with, I have said from day one that I am a huge fan of the FE engines, however the 385 series engines are a far better engine. What else would you expect out of a engine that was the "next evolution" of the Ford big block in the late 1960's and has been the most factory and aftermarket developed Ford big block engine of the last 30+ years. I have said before many times that if the Cobra had continued production the next step would have been a 429 Cobra or 460 Cobra.

It just happened that the 460 engine came out after the "engine wars" of the sixties were over (due to emissions), it is no different than the 454 Chevrolet engines that came out in the early 1970's. Some were "dogs" only because of the emissions issues and like the 460 Ford if the Muscle Car era would have fully continued into the mid 1970's the 427 Chevrolet wouldn't be their famed engine of the muscle car era either.

[Excaliber]

I think it's mis-leading to say a 427 is a "punched out 390". Following that logic a 351W is an early "punched out 221", or 260 or 289 or maybe 302 or whatever.

Perhaps a 390 is a "punched out" 352? Or was that a 331? How about a GM siamese 400 being a "punched out" 265? Or was that a 283?

Just because an engine is in the same family doesn't make it the same engine. A 302 is FAR from being a "punched out" 289. While it may be "accurate" to say that, it is not "true".

[Turk]

TC,
We haven't established that they are indeed 700HP monsters!

Wouldn't matter if someone showed up with a documented trouble free 20,000 engine. Milage may be documented, and it may in fact be reliable miles...

What has been at the center of controversy has always been the 700 HP.

If we wait a little longer Cracker's motor that is undergoing a makeover will come close to giving us some insight to those dyno numbers.

I for one will give them the benefit of doubt until such time.

Hey Cracker! How's that thing coming along?

TURK

FE still Rules!!

[BANDIT 1]

Originally posted by misfit41


Steelcomp,
Your correct much of my argument is from passion,I just love the old motors,and hate 385's,I've tried to like them,but I just cant,I know they are cheap power nowadays ,but there heavy and ugly ,and dont sound so good, and please no offense meant to anyone,thats just my opinion,I suppose I formed it in my teens when I worked at a small ford dealership while going to Ford Tech school,they were considered a boat anchor then,still overshadowed by fe's,I realize given the epa regulations imposed at the time,it wasnt a fair shake,but it dosent matter,my mind is set.

We keep hearing the same ol' negative stuff from the FE boy's. The 385 series engine cost less because it is a modern engine with unlimited parts and development. The FE is expensive because parts are rare and development is limited. A customer that "lives in the past" doesn't mind paying $20,000.00+ for a 500+ horsepower FE engine even though for less money he can have a more reliable 600+ horsepower 385 series engine.

A 100 lb. weight difference hardly makes a 460 engine "heavy".

The quote that they don't sound good isn't even worth replying about.

There is no reason that a person on this forum can't love the FE engine's, just quit coming up with lame reasons why the 460 engine doesn't belong in a Cobra. The Cobra has always been about the best Ford big block engine available, and that would be the 385 series engine.

[misfit41]

"I've tried to like them,but I just cant,I know they are cheap power nowadays ,but there heavy and ugly ,and dont sound so good, and please no offense meant to anyone,thats just my opinion,"
As I said,,just my opinion,and I dont remember anyone saying a 385 shouldnt be in a cobra,as Steelcomp said,I think many our arguments are emotional,I just dont like them,and yes I do they they sound strange,but thats my opnion.
I agree 100% with what you said about avalible parts and research toward 385 engines,the fe was ditched because it wasnt epa friendly ,and not interchangable with small blocks/clevelands etc.it would have to be different if there had been a major factory effort such as the 385 has had.another "what if"
I look at it like thisollar for Dollar a C5 {or 6 ] corvette is way more car than any of us on this site will ever have in a cobra,and their a great driving car,but I wouldnt drive one if it was free,and have proven that,SO,,cobra = FE,,it just looks right,,to me,,lol
as I said again,,NO OFFENSE,,thats just me,,Tim
PS,,no matter where you put it,,100 lbs is LOT

[ToyCollector]

TURK,

Regardless of horsepower claimed or actual, I would like to know who has put some significant street miles on one of these and what their experience has been like. After all, I view an engine builder's dilemna as having to deal with the balance of HP versus reliability. It is an age old problem everyone including racers out there faces, and I feel it is relevant to the discussion at hand. Look at how many racing sanctioning bodies (road racing wise) now make racers race in the same engine they qualify in.

It is one thing for someone to post a dyno sheet, it is another to also say that the engine has given 20,000 or more trouble free miles. We have only heard HP discussion from KeithCraft owners, and I am curious who has some significant miles with one.

[Keithc8]

CSX 4027 and Steel Comp, the doors to our shop are open anytime you want to come look around. I can't help it that you can not make any horsepower with an FE engine.
I guess you need to check the NHRA national records and you will see our name beside about 8 records with FE engines and I believe none with yours. You people beat anything I have ever seen. We do not inflate dyno numbers and SuperFlow can vouch for this since they have been here during our testing and checked the dyno.
If you add compression and a roller camshaft you can make 850HP with the FE heads we do. We are so far ahead of you guys on cylinder head developement it is not even funny. You show how little you know about FE engines with your statements. How do we have customers running 8.30 at 160 in the quarter mile in a 2600lb car with out making 800HP. You guys must not get out much and look at how fast some of these FE guys are going now.
There is nothing wrong with dyno sheets we provide and we can provide the other information as well to our customers but most do not need or want that information. If you have good cylinder head flow you can have a VE over 100 percent we do it all the time. Most of you guys do not have good cylinder head flow so you do not get good VE numbers.
Why don't you two guys get on an airplane and come visit?Maybe you can teach us a few things. I guess having the fastest FE's in the country doesn't mean anything.
All I can tell you is that our customers who have other engines and then get our engines know they make a lot more power and that is all that matters. Since you also sell engines you need to worry about your customers and not mine. I am sorry you can't handle the numbers our engines produce. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

[ItsOnlyMoney]

Yet another HAPPY KCR customer. I would post hp and torque numbers, but why bother.

David

[hoppy]

Steel Comp
Welcome to this forum. You have certainly livened up things around here. I don't claim to know $hit from $hinola about the technical aspects of engines or engine building. This place has replaced TV for me as a place to find interesting and entertaining dialog. Your credetials speak for themselves as do KC's and a few others. I'm just feeling like a fly on the wall at a meeting of experts (with some wannabes and BS'rs along for the ride) with differing opinions. What better way to spend some time.
Keep it coming, I'm sure there are many others in my position trying to soak up whatever they can.

[Cracker]

Turk & others - it's in process so not much longer!

Steelcomp - I appreciate a lot of what your saying but if you read the initial post the baseline figures have been taken off of the independent dyno. The significance as such is whatever KCR does on his dyno is ill-relevant with respect to the other - THIS MEANS A BASELINE TO COMPARE IMPROVEMENTS & DYNO DIFFERENCES MADE BY KCR. Also, Keith is not running the Atlanta dyno rather only tuning the engine (if he wants to fly to Atlanta) while ON the dyno.

M. LeFevers - cool having you chime in! Thanks for the tour of the 'ole Shelby facility awhile back. I hope all is well with your engine bizz!

TC - I hear ya man but not everyone is expecting passenger car results/reliability in their COBRA engine & experience. Really big hp comes at a cost, nearly always, if not only a trade-off. I don't care if my engine lasts 20K miles but 10k between freshening would be great. In my case that would be about every 4-5 years - no big deal (for me). I understand that some builders do no more than minor stock re-building of engines - I could do that myself but I can't make huge power that allows the powerplant a reasonable amount of reliability at the same time. BTW, besides Hal Copple I don't know anyone with 20K miles on their drivetrain. Heck, you only have about 50! We missed you yesterday at the Varsity - they said you had "another" reason to no show off your coke can.

[Dave Rodak]

Originally posted by ItsOnlyMoney


Yet another HAPPY KCR customer. I would post hp and torque numbers, but why bother.

David

David,
You sure got it right.


I'm a very happy Keith Craft customer. Very happy & very satisfied. In fact, I don't personally know any unhappy Craft customers and have not heard from any here or on the mustang boards.

However, I have heard plenty here from the Craft doubters. I appreciate all the experts, real or imagined, who are trying to protect us poor knuckleheads from buying Keith Craft's promises. It's real easy for you guys to tear him down sitting behind a keyboard (risking nothing!)... I'm hoping you'll step up and do what's right just as quickly when he is exonerated with Cracker's project.

Time will tell, but I'm thinking Cracker will be as pleased with his results as the rest of us misguided believers.

[jwoodard]

why don't you post a complete dyno sheet on one of your recent 427 builds and enlighten all of us on a REAL HP engine?

[steelcomp]

The last "real" motor I built was when I was working for Alan Johnson, (know who he is?) and I'm sure it would dyno in the 3k range.
KC, I never said you didn't build a good engine...I never said anything personal about you at all...my comments were about (call it what you want, put your mane here, your business name here, I don't care who you are) what looked to be some extremely good, in my opinion unrealistic, HP numbers from a motor that size, with that compression, a dual plane manifold, and a small four barrel. Your flow numbers don't impress me...they mean very little. (I addressed that issue already) I spent years looking down the tubes of the BEST heads money could buy, not some wannabe production casting. I worked with and learned from the guys who developed the technology you're using. You have NO IDEA my experience, but I'll tell you this, you'd be a better engine builder if you had been where I have been. 800 hp? BFD.

You know, it's funny. I've made my case, explained why I think what I think, where the doubts are, in fairly simple technical terms, black and white, and I was hoping that when KC finally signed in, ('cause I knew I'd get your attention) you'd tell me why I was wrong, and where I was wrong in an educated, intelligent manner. Instead, you don't address ONE SINGLE ISSUE I have brought up. (In fact, not one of you out there have.) I'm not going to fly out to your shop...what would that prove? I have wasted enough time already on this site. I just gotta laugh at you Cobra guys who think the world rotates around you and your Cobras!! It's incredible! No one out here in the big world really cares! The kit car industry sucks, big time! It's pathetic, and I don't miss it or the mentality, which has been so blatently displayed here.
You're the king of your little hill, KC. That's for sure, and I congratulate you. I know you work your ass off and have earned it. You have to know what you're doing, or you wouldn't be where you are. Sincere kudos for that!, but I've been being objective, and haven't attacked ANYONE here, personally, and for you to come out and insinuate that you're some kinda big time, and I'm a no one, and not have one good response to anything I've said except insult and sarcasm, well, that just pissed me off. You're a wannabe. Big time, pseudo successful, but there's a thousand like you out there. Why are you so defensive? What is it that you're hiding? Hmmm?

I know for a fact that there are explainations. I'm convinced that your dyno numbers are actual (still not convinced that they are legit, and for sure, I'm not the only one.) There has been quite some controversy over this, so it's not just someone's imagination. 650 isn't hard to get out of a motor. Do it with small blocks all the time. Get 800 from 'em. From a 482, easy. But I'm only going to say this one more time. Not with 10.5:1, a dual plane manifold, a small 4bbl, (900 cfm is small) and an 800 rpm idle. I don't buy it, I won't buy it, and there's not a whole lot that you're going to tell me, short of shipping me the parts, letting me assemble the motor, and doing my own dyno on it, that's going to convince me otherwise. But I really don't care!!!

And you weren't getting 100%ve on that motor (you should be getting OVER 100). And the ve/scfm numbers don't jive, and the hp/torque no's don't jive either.

I'm done here.

[misfit41]

Steelcomp,,
I can tell your a nice guy,,but its obvious your going thru a bad time,,No doubt your a great engine builder,and have priceless technical knowledge,and I am also sure that things will turn around for you soon,bad times never last,,keep your head up,,
regards,,Tim

[Turk]

WHOA!

There is doubting Thomases and then there is arrogance..
Are we not getting a little caried away in here?

All arguments (however convincing) seems to evolve around "ME, ME, ME".

Something a little more humble would probably have more support for the questions asked and answered by the same person.

Some of us have been asking similar questions, with much more reserve long before those who just showed up and then left.!

Those of us who spend more time here than those who come and leave within 30 posts, and tell us they have already wasted too much time in here, maybe didn't belong here at the first place.

It is not just a slap on Keith's face but all of us who get more out this place than using it as a platform to scream and yell and leave.

Maybe I am alone in this.
This thread didn't do too much in the way of questioning the claimed numbers by Keith Craft as much as telling us, how retarded the rest of us are as compared to mr. steelcomp.

WOW!!