custom roller cam and spring question

[wrench87]

i ordered a custom hydraulic roller cam from keith craft for my 390 fe stroker, but on the cam card there is no spring information. i e mailed kc but my e mail was returned for some reason. is there a way to figure out what i need for springs. is this common practice not to include this information?. will comp cams give me the info if i call them with the grind number?. i am running mass flo fuel inj on my engine the cam is as follows 112 lobe seperation duration 230-238 and lift is .598-.617.

[blykins]

They usually don't put them on the cam card.

I would try giving Keith a call. Their mailbox was full and the emails were coming back. I got an email from him yesterday, so you might wanna try again.

If you can give me the install height, the diameter that you need, and your intended peak hp rpm, I can help you pick a spring as well.

What cylinder heads are you running? Edelbrocks?

[RICK LAKE]

wrench 87 the springs are your choice. When the head work was done they should match the cam profile, compression, rpm range for power. ( tork band and HP max rpm range ). What rocker arm setup are you running? Alot of guys run comp cam springs with a dampener. They have about 140 closed pressure and 450 lbs open. What lifters are you running solids or hydro rollers? I am running a 587-607" crane hydro roller. I run the beehives that are for the BBC motor #26120. These springs are good for only 600 or 625 max lift. Have run them for 2 years and no problems. I limit the motor to 6,000 rpm when it was the 452. This was with a hydro cam at 501-533" lift. Before adding the beehives the motor would nose over at 5,700. After the springs where replaced and the adjustments on the pushrods set for .015" of plunger depth, the motor would spin strong to 6,000. Comp saids there is a 300-400 rpm range gain because of the 44 grams per valve that is removed. I am still running the same heads but have added a stroker kit from Barry R. The cam I am using is the small crane hydro roller. I didn't have the motor broken in yet but up to 4,500 rpm (limit in MSD box) the car pulls like a train. I will have a max rpm limit of 6,200 rpm but could spin the motor to 6,500 without it noseing over. I couple stories have been done on these springs that caused failures to the motors. 2 where about IMPROPER assembly and haveing no spring clearance between the coils. There was coil bind and it breaks the springs everytime. The other was a race motor with titanium valves and turning 7,400 rpm. There where picture of the damage. I think the valve broke( it was on the exhaust side ) not the spring. Comp has a spring that works for .750" lift cams. # 25595. They say it is for Nascar. Anyway they are not cheap but they work for my applications. There is a real 10-15 hp pickup in the upper RPM range. I got this off the dyno on the 452 motor. These spring are better at stablizing the valve and valve train. 44 grams may not seam like alot but put in the right application, and that motor spins up just a little faster. With the heavy valve train in the FE, any weight saved will help. I am looking at building a rev kit to take the load off the valve spring. This should give another 500 rpm and help stablize the valves even more. The lifters are heavy when they are hydros and not solids. Good Luck Rick L.

[wrench87]

i dont have my cylinder heads yet, that is the last piece of the puzzle i have to buy. i am going to be using the edelbrock heads, i have the erson rockers and smith bro's pushrods and the crane t bar hydraulic roller lifters. i cant afford to buy 2500.00 stage II heads so iam just looking at options for my 445 stroker with efi. out of the box edelbrocks are 1300.00 but they dont have the right springs, i would like to find something a little better then stock but not 2500.00 worth. any ideas?

[blykins]

As far as cylinder heads go, you're pretty limited. You can either go with out of the box pieces, or have them worked on.

It all depends on how much power you want to make. A good rule of thumb is that you can multiply your cfm by 2 and figure out how much horsepower you can make if everything else is kosher. Out of the box Edelbrocks flow about 265-270cfm. So you have the potential of making 530-540hp if your cam and intake selection is good.

Until you make a cylinder head choice, it's kinda hard to recommend a valve spring. There are several variables in choosing a spring (knowing the install height, spring pocket diameter, etc.) that I'd have to know before I could make a choice. Even if you call Comp or Keith Craft, they'd have to know those variables.

With 390ci and a 230 duration @ .050" cam, I'd guess your hp peak would be at around 5800-6000rpm. With a hydraulic roller, I'd choose springs that will give you about 150lbs seat pressure and about 400 lbs open pressure. A little higher spring pressure won't hurt a hydraulic roller lifter and I like to eliminate all chances of valve float at the peak hp rpm's.

Rick Lake's got a good point on using beehive springs. However, you'll find that they're more expensive and it's somewhat more difficult to find the pressures that you need at the correct install heights.

I just went through this process with my SBF TW-R heads. The only beehives I could find (without shimming the crap out of them) were up around $300 for the springs alone. I decided to go with good dual springs and titanium retainers to help keep the weight down.

Call Barry Rabotnick at Survival Motorsports. He'll fix you up with a set of heads that will fit your budget. He could also set them up with springs to match your cam for you, since he will know the install heights.

[RedCSX1]

I am actually guessing that its between 135-145 seat pressure. I would give Comp cams a call for the information you are looking for. Might ask about the bee hive springs.

[RICK LAKE]

wrench 87 I know you are in a hurry to get your car and motor done. Here's the thing, For the money differents between the box heads and having the heads ported and flowed, Is it not worth the wait? There is 20-50 HP by now having the heads done. I waited 13 months for a short block from my machinist because of speciality work he was doing. I hated the wait, but worth it in the long run. I have a motor in the basement, Like you I have gotten most the parts. Block, Custom camshaft from KCR, TWM 58mm setup, T&D rocker setup, Edelbrock heads, pro flowed, DannyBee timing belt setup, All the Fle-Pro gaskets, all the ARP bolts and studs. I am working on the Drysump system. Work in process. Anyway save your money until you can do the motor right. Instead of doing stock heads and putting a large cam in the motor, WAIT. You will get no where near the power of the motor you are looking for. Your exhaust is another power choker, the side pipes on your cobra will cost another 20-40 HP without and other changes to the motor. I have 2 sets of pipes from ERA, one for the street, and the race pipes. There is a big differents between them. There are 3 spring numbers that should work on your heads if you go Beehive springs 1, #26120 The ones I use, they have a .600" max lift. You can cheat a little with hydro lifters on these. seat pressure is 145, max open is 377, rate on spring is 370 lbs. per inch. 2, 26055 has a .650" max lift. 150 seat, 410 open, rate on spring is 400lbs. per inch. 3, is 26095 this is the .750" lift this is the custom spring seat is 150 lbs. the max opening is based on cam lift. It is a soft spring with 293 lbs per inch. This spring is for running a light valve train with 8mm valves, aluminium rockers. small push rods, solid lifters and a rev kit if you build it. There are cross overs for the springs from say the 986 dual spring which alot of guys use to the 26986 beehive. They do the same thing but the beehive has less weight to control, again about 40 grams. Do yourself a favor and wait Put the right stuff together you will save monet and be alot happier. I know. Rick L. No I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn express last night. I stayed in the basement looking at the boxes of parts.

[wrench87]

rick, my car has been done since 2005 i just have the 342 in it , i am just switching to the fe for a project. i dont believe 30-40 hp is worth 1200.00 for a street car. i would like to get something in the 1600.00 to 2,000.00 price range. i saw that flatlander racing offers stage 1 to stage 3 heads but once again they have the stock springs, i think a spring upgrade was up to 300.00 i would like to it once and do it right. i do see some people bolting on stock edelbrock heads on 482's i wonder how they perform?. does barry r or kc offer different stage heads?. if so is any body running them?.

[RICK LAKE]

wrench 87 IMO I don't think that anyone buying a KCR motor in the 480+ cubes is going to run stock Edelbrock heads. They just don't have the flow in stock form for a motor this big. He has 3 stage heads and I see from reading forums that most are either stage 2 or 3. Your cam is just a little bigger than mine in my 482" motor. With 445" At least have the bowl area cleaned up. You can match port the intake and exhaust your self. There are plenty of how to videos on basic porting. Takes time. The stock heads out of the box are for replacements. They run small valves and will pass state inspections. In stock form against your stock iron heads you will pickup 10-15 hp real numbers, not what is there print advertized. The weight savings is big, about 30 pounds from iron to aluminium. The big winner is from going an all iron motor to aluminium top half, you save about 110 lbs of weight. I don't know what was done to the 342 motor but there will not be that much different in performance without matching the parts to work together. If you give me both specs on your motors, I will run them on Dyno 2000 and Dynosim and tell you the differents There should be a set or numbers on the end of the cams to tell what the lobe are. They will help alot. This program is within 5% of real numbers on a ground dyno. rick l.

[wrench87]

with the 4.080 bore i can not run the big valves i have to run the 2.09 and 1.65 exaust . all the charts i see for the flow are based off the 2.19 intake valve. my 342 made 343 rwhp and 321 rear wheel tourque on a dyno jet dyno. kc said my motor should make 525 hp at the flywheel with the right heads?.