Winter Upgrade - Megasquirt - Page 2

vector1 · #21 (**permalink**) 12-12-2011, 06:55 PM

sounds pretty reasonable. i was considering setting back up for efi and going dis. that or keep it simple, haven't decided yet.

you get the whitby bearings installed yet?

bobcowan · #22 (**permalink**) 12-12-2011, 08:45 PM

No, not yet. It's on the list, though.

Luce · #23 (**permalink**) 12-16-2011, 04:44 AM

I got mine started last night. It started and ran after only 3 seconds of cranking, but loaded up and stalled. I made a little control panel that let me turn on Megasquirt, MDS, fuel pump, injectors, and the fan independently, so I then turned off the injectors and cranked again to clear the flood, try again.

I had (as best you can without it running) dialed in 10deg static advance, but forgot to turn off the advance curve and zero trigger offset, so it was running 0 deg. Fixed that, reduced the fuel pressure (cheating to get an idle) and had an idle. I'm having communication issues I need to clear up. The gauges on the computer would freeze, and it wasn't flashing.

Now that I can make it start idle and rev a bit, I'll get the pipes finished and O2 sensor installed, and fix a coolant leak in my lower radiator hose.

Time to read the MSextra forum and see if there's a common problem and solution to my com problem.

I'm really stoked! MS is a super cool setup.

One piece of advice I can give to anyone messing with MS, or any fuel injection system... check each and every little subsystem one by one as best you can before you have it all together and ready to crank. I first plumbed up the fuel system, put power to the pump directly, and checked for the proper pressure, sniffed the throttle body for no leaky injectors. Then spin the dizzy and verify spark and injector noise and sensor readings. Then I cranked the engine with no fuel pump or injectors, and a drizzle of gas to hear a few cylinders kick over to verify ballpark timing, THEN add power to the fuel pump and injectors. And do anything you can to get comfortable with the software. Exciting stuff!!!

vector1 · #24 (**permalink**) 12-16-2011, 05:58 AM

be aware of emi/rfi, which can reek havoc with electronics. shielding is very useful. you can look to the kit aircraft builders such as the rv series for ideas. fars or faa.gov ac 43.13-1b i believe has some good information.

also watch out for air leaks in the exhaust, slip fit connections won't work.

Luce · #25 (**permalink**) 12-16-2011, 06:48 AM

Good tips. I'll look into that. I've been an electronics hobbyist for 30 years and know what your talking about. I think my problem is more with the software on the laptop. The program freezes, but it's status indicators say it's still "synced". It may be an EMI/RFI problem inducing a comm error that the software can't recover from. I didn't have any problems with my old to****ba, even with the injectors and coil firing, but now I'm using a new netbook, and it's giving me driver errors and having to reinstall the drivers every time I start it up.

I also should have found a VE table for an engine closer to what I have. Happy cams make far less vacuum at idle than the semi stock default table is looking for.

bobcowan · #26 (**permalink**) 12-16-2011, 07:06 AM

Cool. I'm still working on my wiring harness.

Where did you find the VE table? My cam is pretty big, and doesn't make much vacuum at idle. It does have a wide LSA, so the vacuum is stable.

Luce · #27 (**permalink**) 12-16-2011, 07:48 AM

It was the generic one that was loaded with the firmware. It'll get you stared, but will idle way rich. You can easily pull the high vacuum, low RPM bins down 30% or so and get it started, then let VEAL tune he rest. Take you time and think before you modify! Don't let the pressure of all of the neighbors looking on rush you.

Luce · #28 (**permalink**) 12-19-2011, 05:03 AM

I did some no load tuning yesterday and have it sounding pretty good. I still haven't hooked up the O2 sensor. I don't think the no load (especially idle) data will be of any use. Every missfire dumps a cylinder load of free oxygen into the pipes, giving you a way lean reading, so I set VE for maximum RPM at 1000 RPM and 2000 RPM. The old Toshiba laptop is more stable with the USB-serial adapter. Every time I boot up the new computer, it re instals the driver and gives it a newer COM port... 6 more times and I'll run out!

Megasquirt rocks! I want to put it on my boat next! It's like a new toyota. Turn it on, hit the starter and it's running (but with a lope).

bobcowan · #29 (**permalink**) 12-19-2011, 06:33 AM

I'm still doing the wiring. I have lots of diagrams and notes, so everything will be well documented when finished. I did my own harness for a few reasons.

I originally intended to mount the computer in the same place as the old one, and then adapt the harness to the new computer. After carefull consideration, I decided to just start from scratch and build a whole new one. Turned out to be easier, and have a better harness.

I wanted a couple of custom touches to the harness. I put Weatherpack connecters in strategic spots to make maintenance easier. I overhaul the engine every two years, more often if I break something.

And I wanted to hardwire a tap for the LM-1. I plan to use the wide band for a while until everything is tuned well. Then I'll switch to a narrow band for daily driving. I'll probably use closed loop for the track, as I have some leaded fuel to burn up.

I had the old computer on the top of the passenger foot box, on the inside. The ignition box was behind the dash. Since I was combining the two boxes, I decided to put the MS behind the dash. That eliminates the bulk head connecter altogether.

Oddly enough, I couldn't find the proper pigtails for the coolant sensor and air temp sensor at any of the parts stores in town; not even at NAPA! So I ordered them from Summit along with a couple of other things I needed.

The other thing I couldn't find was the braided nylon wire protecters. The corrugated and spiral type are everywhere, but the braided ones are not available. I ordered that from Summit, too.

Caprimaniac · #30 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 10:32 AM

Hi, Bob.
I went the EFI route this winter as well- although a different route than you did. I went with a complete FAST setup; ECU, harness, XIM- box, Ls1coils, injectors, inlet manifold, TB and all sensors - even got some extra sensors for logging & harness for the fuel pump & fans- and the bill ended up at alot more than I had hoped for. Well, I even got the Explorer '00 front cover, balancer & sensors.

I feel a little stupid by spending all that money, but I know the harness is all plug and play. I know I could have gone the MS route, but I did not have the guts.... There is so much else I wish to spend my time on, so I have avoided making the harness & connections.

What I have to do, though is a little bit of work on the damper/ trigger wheel & pulley. Even have to make a new bracket for a new alternator. I'll have to make some alterations to the cooling system connection on the front cover too.

I have been looking some at the MS forum at the Corral; I'm sure you'll find some useful hints & tips over there. MegaSquirt - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

Will watch your thread this winter!

Happy holidays
RuneS.

bobcowan · #31 (**permalink**) 12-21-2011, 04:43 PM

Yeah, I really looked at the FAST system. It looks good on paper, and I'v heard a lot of good things about it. But it was the price that got me.

I had the pro's build the ECU. But I figured I could build the harnesses. I have enough experiance with EFI now that I can get it done. And there's some custom touches I wanted to do. It is definatly taking longer than I thought it would, though. Some of it is me learning some new skills. And part of it is finding time in the christmas season.

Oh, well. It's a hobby, not a job. It will get done when It gets done.

Tuning is going to be more of a challange than I thought it would be. Since I have an excellent tune already in the can, I thought it would be fairly simple to transfer over to the new ECU. But the programming scheme is completly differant. So I almost have to start from scratch. Again, not that big of a deal (I hope). It just requires me learning a new skill set. At my age....

Luce · #32 (**permalink**) 12-22-2011, 05:50 AM

Have a look over here, too, for more down and dirty ground up custom MS install and tuning. Megasquirt MSEXTRA / MS3EFI • Index page

I hate to say negative things, but electronics packaged for hotrod guys are way too limiting for me. I know what can be incorporated into the ECU, and want the option of doing just that. Did you know that from '85 (I think) on mopar put the voltage regulator into the ECU? So after you crank it up, it gives checks that it's charging, and adjust the charge for temp, run time, battery condition and a bunch of other variables. I don't want that, but shutting off the A/C compressor beyond 1/2 throttle or 3600 RPM is a nice little feature. I'm using the fist idle switch to turn the fan on full speed if engine temp hits 200 deg (if my fan speed controller isn't working). I was thinking about PWM-ing my fuel pump down when full capacity isn't needed. Also, closed loop idle air functions...Maybe it could even turn out your tail lights when your running from the cops!

olddog · #33 (**permalink**) 12-22-2011, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce

I was thinking about PWM-ing my fuel pump down when full capacity isn't needed.

Bad idea. Motors do not take kindly to rapid on off situations.

Tom Wells · #34 (**permalink**) 12-22-2011, 10:38 AM

Luce,

Here's one way to control the fuel pump: Aeromotive*|*16306 - Billet Fuel Pump Speed Controller

I've used one for ~8 years and 26K miles without problems in an EFI installation.

BTW, Google taught me what you didn't: PWM = Pulse Width Modulator

Tom

Caprimaniac · #35 (**permalink**) 12-29-2011, 03:06 AM

Hi.
So, Bob- you're sitting in front of the christmas tree, legs crossed as to do tailor- work, with the wire bundle in your lap, pliers in your hand..... I saw this in a glimpse and had to write it down. A good friend of mine did the same thing; stayed at home watching his children & got the harness together- although he only has 4 cylinders....

Yeah; time is a fortune- I have troubkle finding time for what I'd like to do these days. christmas time have been some work, some come togethers and a few hours of fav to-do's, for instance getting engine bay prepped for paint.

I thought the aeromotive way was one of the few ways to regulate the EFI pump? There's some amps to control.

I'm looking for variable speed by temperature control for my Meziere el. water pump. Any ideas?

Luce · #36 (**permalink**) 12-29-2011, 04:26 AM

Hey, that's brilliant. You could use the Aeromotive fuel pump controller to run the waterpump, if it draws less than 40 amps.

I passed on the Aeromotive controller due to cost. It's $20 worth of parts that I couldn't justify paying over $300 for. I was originally thinking about the speed controller when I was looking at their huge fuel pumps and was thinking how I'll only be using 5% of the fuel they were pumping 90% of the time. I then found a more reasonably sized in tank fuel pump that wouldn't be such a burden on teh electrical system and cost $450 less than the bigger pump and controller.

If you read past the space aged digital gobbelly gook, the controller is a pulse width modulator that uses the inductance of the motor and a flyback diode. It turns the motor off and on thousands of times per second. The diode prevents the energy in the inductor (the motor in this case) from being wasted as a spark, and the motor sees a reduced voltage, making it run slower. Provided you don't stall the motor, it's harmless and increases the motors life, again, provided you're not running it so slow and bogged down that you're hampering its cooling method.

A friend of mine was giving me grief about the messy disarray my garage is in. My reply was I don't have time to clean during my "stolen moments" in the garage.

And, I have mine idling and revving quite nicely, but I'm on wild goose chases with Marty at Ford Racing as we dance around the leaky valve stem seal issue.(see the 427 burning oil thread on the small block forum) My Mr gasket material blew out between the primary and side pipe, so I can't use the O2 sensor until I get some gasket material. I'm thinking a sheet of copper and forming a bead around the 4 tubes.

bobcowan · #37 (**permalink**) 12-29-2011, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caprimaniac

Hi.
So, Bob- you're sitting in front of the christmas tree, legs crossed as to do tailor- work, with the wire bundle in your lap, pliers in your hand..... I saw this in a glimpse and had to write it down.

Yeah, it was kind of like that! I got some good garage time during the three day week end. I finished the harness, and got it all installed. Last night I started to button things up, and ran across a couple of small things that need attention. I won't get back to it until the middle of next week, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luce

My Mr gasket material blew out between the primary and side pipe, so I can't use the O2 sensor until I get some gasket material. I'm thinking a sheet of copper and forming a bead around the 4 tubes.

I havn't used a header gasket in years. Nothing but copper hi temp silicone sealer. It never fails, even with all the track time I get.

Luce · #38 (**permalink**) 12-30-2011, 08:10 AM

Hi temp silicone? I'll dress up the mating flange a little and try it. Thanks!

Caprimaniac · #39 (**permalink**) 01-15-2012, 02:44 AM

If you read past the space aged digital gobbelly gook, the controller is a pulse width modulator that uses the inductance of the motor and a flyback diode. It turns the motor off and on thousands of times per second. The diode prevents the energy in the inductor (the motor in this case) from being wasted as a spark, and the motor sees a reduced voltage, making it run slower. Provided you don't stall the motor, it's harmless and increases the motors life, again, provided you're not running it so slow and bogged down that you're hampering its cooling method.

Thanks, Luce. I will have a chat with my old man about this; he's retired electro- engineering. He actually made me a - what is it called.. a resistor... to make a 2- speed control for the water pump; ignition on the pumpe runs at 1/3 speed, and when water temp reaches some 85 degrees (C) the pump goes on full together with the fans. Works great, so far.

Yup; the downside with the Aeromotive controller is the costs, for sure. One for the fuel, one for the water and one for the fans?

Yeah; been reading the 427 threads & find it strange these "high end" companys deliver parts with this kind of flaws. Although they're giving good customer follow- up on this. It will all end well, I'm sure.

I find using copper gaskets working well for headers. As for exhaust tubing I use clamps only. Used a flanged 3- bolt with copper gasket earlier; ran out of space as they hit the ground & leaked.

Good to hear your harness is coming together, Bob. The EFI- parts for my 347 is to arrive next week. Eager to get it together? Yes. Prepared to take on all the troubles I will meet? Don't think so....

griffith200 · #40 (**permalink**) 01-15-2012, 04:20 PM

every fall after race season for the past three years the carb comes off in attempt to get a ms/itb system to work, this year a bench testing approach was taken,
first getting the injectors responding to the tps via alpha-n took a couple of weeks of hair pulling but not before destroying another mallory hall sensor,
after more research and rewiring the new hall sensor appears to be working in concert with the ecu so now it looks like time for an engine test