efi systems

[spdbrake]

Well I wrote a long winded reply with the details of distributor rotor phasing but its on hold for moderator approval. Probably due to the the youtube link.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by spdbrake

Well I wrote a long winded reply with the details of distributor rotor phasing but its on hold for moderator approval. Probably due to the the youtube link.

That does happen to new members, particularly when a link is added.

Once you are no longer a new member, and you are a trusted member like 99% on here, you'll be fine.

We have all had this restriction in our early days.

Gary

[spdbrake]

I turned off the timing feature and unlocked the MSD dizzy again. Runs mucho better. I got the feeling it was arguing with itself over what the most important parameters to achieve.

[Gaz64]

That's the biggest issue running programmable timing with a locked distributor.

Crossfire/spark scatter is more likely to occur.

A modified cap with large holes can be used to observe the spark events in the cap.

MSD offers an adjustable rotor to correct rotor phasing errors for this purpose.

Gary

[spdbrake]

Yup I have one and drilled the cap and did Phase the rotor. Still sucked even though I had it set just to left edge of the post at idle and roughly centered on the post at all-in though.
I was getting 18-24deg, 850-960 idle, AFR 13-15 or so (rough numbers here) like it was arguing with itself. So I decided to remove a job from its to-do list.
Once I unlocked the dizzy I used the Blue springs and Green bushing this time and Phased the rotor again. Then installed the the awesome new MSD black dizzy cap (Prob good for 50 more HP like a red Type R emblem).
Pretty stable now, and no hunting.

[Gaz64]

Is the timing solid now?

I've seen many chase spark scatter issues, and I think it is the software/hardware of having a programmable ignition.

I've used a 6530, didn't like some features.

[spdbrake]

Timing is great now and the other parameters Idle speed , AFR are steady.

I've only gotten approx 20 miles total on the system and reset the learning once I unlocked the dizzy. I do love the system now.
Probably because it reminds me a bit of the FADECs and EECs on the
Garrett,Rolls-Royce,Williams,P&W,Honeywell engines I deal with.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by tamanaco

anyone installed FiTech efi system? Products

can be used as a standard suck thru or as a blow thru for turbo/blower car. clean looking installation...looking for any feedback.

The first post is asking about the Fitech efi which is a self learning system. What are you talking about.

[joyridin']

Nope, but then again I replied to Texasdoc and his system, not the original poster stating maybe he had the wrong system for his application. The systems I stated are NOT self-learning. You do know that right since the self-learning does not lend itself well to certain applications?

Maybe you should just drop the discussion? You are starting to look a little foolish trying to take apples and make them into oranges. As I have stated a few times already, EFI systems and big cams/modifications work fine together. It is done by thousands of people every day. Do you have EFI on your car? Have you had EFI on your car and it didn't work? Have you ever installed EFI on a car you had and it didn't work? I have an EFI system, big cam, lots of mods, and it works quite well and it is still running in closed loop. Sorry if you aren't bright enough to get one working correctly. Oh..LOL

[fordracing65]

Dude. You stated not one person on this thread was about a self learning system the first post was asking about a self learning system. I think you have it all wrong. Remember reading is comprehensive. I did not bring up self learning efi. The op did. Lay off the drugs.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by tamanaco

anyone installed FiTech efi system? Products

can be used as a standard suck thru or as a blow thru for turbo/blower car. clean looking installation...looking for any feedback.

Joyriding reread the post. He asked about the Fitech SELF LEARNING SYTEM.

[eschaider]

As long as you guys choose to go with EFI systems that essentially provide a carburetor to EFI conversion using what looks like the old carburetor, you are going to be working with a compromise at best. You should be using individual port injectors, a EFI specific manifold designed for dry operation and a suitable throttle body for the airflow your particular engine demands.

You have three fueling strategies available to you Alpha -N, Speed Density and MAF based in order of increasing sophistication. By far the most popular systems are speed density systems. MAF based systems are the most precise in matching fuel delivery to air flow. Alpha-N strategies are regularly incorporated into both the speed density and MAF based models.

Speed density systems ignore actual air flow and calculated an implied mass air flow from manifold pressure, throttle position and air temps. The MAF based systems precisely measure air flow with their MAF and calculate fuel demand based on injested air mass and engine load. MAF stuff works everywhere, Speed Density works well unless there are significant atmospheric changes or altitude changes.

The auto learning functions allow you to get "close" to the right tune but still require programming intervention to get it right everywhere, always, all the time. Buying low cost good enough systems usually are not either low cost nor good enough to get the job done correctly. If you have the skills then you can learn how to tune one if you don't, step back and buy the expertise form a reputable tuning shop familiar with your EFI choice.

In terms of bang for the buck you can not beat the manufactured Megasquirt MS3Pro-Ultimate systems from DIYAutoTune <= clickable. This particular EFI system is the equivalent of a Haltech or similar system costing 2-3x the price. Additionally the Megasquirt guys are among the very oldest of all the aftermarket EFI providers — their stuff has years of service and debugging work already done when you buy it. Did I mention they come with a lifetime warranty? Nice thing to have when something goes bump in the dark.

You can learn how to tune it but you can also go to a shop to buy the tuning skills for your install. Unlike most EFI systems that require you to buy 'their sensors' the Megasquirt guys allow calibrating the EFI system to work with any sensor you want to use — including the cheapo sensor form the local parts store (not recommended).

Don't use a wet flow manifold with a dry flow EFI system. Seems like it ought to work and it will but you will loose tunability especially when you start to hunt for ways to bolster the torque in some rpm ranges where you want more grunt. Buy a good aftermarket manifold that was designed as a dry flow manifold from the ground up. If there are no commercial alternatives available look for the older cross ram style individual runner manifolds (ideally with adjustable runner lengths) and weld injector bungs to them at the ports.

Remember the self learning systems are designed to get you running, probably work OK for a grocery getter but will fall short of the mark for a performance application. For performance applications you will need to actually tune your EFI system yourself or buy the service form a good shop.

If you go cheap (low quality not necessarily price) you will go back to the mat more than one time before you are done. Save yourself the headache of the looks like a carb but is really EFI alternatives. At best they are bad compromises, at worst they are useless headaches and a money pit waste of money.


Ed

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by eschaider

As long as you guys choose to go with EFI systems that essentially provide a carburetor to EFI conversion using what looks like the old carburetor, you are going to be working with a compromise at best. You should be using individual port injectors, a EFI specific manifold designed for dry operation and a suitable throttle body for the airflow your particular engine demands.

You have three fueling strategies available to you Alpha -N, Speed Density and MAF based in order of increasing sophistication. By far the most popular systems are speed density systems. MAF based systems are the most precise in matching fuel delivery to air flow. Alpha-N strategies are regularly incorporated into both the speed density and MAF based models.

Speed density systems ignore actual air flow and calculated an implied mass air flow from manifold pressure, throttle position and air temps. The MAF based systems precisely measure air flow with their MAF and calculate fuel demand based on injested air mass and engine load. MAF stuff works everywhere, Speed Density works well unless there are significant atmospheric changes or altitude changes.

The auto learning functions allow you to get "close" to the right tune but still require programming intervention to get it right everywhere, always, all the time. Buying low cost good enough systems usually are not either low cost nor good enough to get the job done correctly. If you have the skills then you can learn how to tune one if you don't, step back and buy the expertise form a reputable tuning shop familiar with your EFI choice.

In terms of bang for the buck you can not beat the manufactured Megasquirt MS3Pro-Ultimate systems from DIYAutoTune <= clickable. This particular EFI system is the equivalent of a Haltech or similar system costing 2-3x the price. Additionally the Megasquirt guys are among the very oldest of all the aftermarket EFI providers — their stuff has years of service and debugging work already done when you buy it. Did I mention they come with a lifetime warranty? Nice thing to have when something goes bump in the dark.

You can learn how to tune it but you can also go to a shop to buy the tuning skills for your install. Unlike most EFI systems that require you to buy 'their sensors' the Megasquirt guys allow calibrating the EFI system to work with any sensor you want to use — including the cheapo sensor form the local parts store (not recommended).

Don't use a wet flow manifold with a dry flow EFI system. Seems like it ought to work and it will but you will loose tunability especially when you start to hunt for ways to bolster the torque in some rpm ranges where you want more grunt. Buy a good aftermarket manifold that was designed as a dry flow manifold from the ground up. If there are no commercial alternatives available look for the older cross ram style individual runner manifolds (ideally with adjustable runner lengths) and weld injector bungs to them at the ports.

Remember the self learning systems are designed to get you running, probably work OK for a grocery getter but will fall short of the mark for a performance application. For performance applications you will need to actually tune your EFI system yourself or buy the service form a good shop.

If you go cheap (low quality not necessarily price) you will go back to the mat more than one time before you are done. Save yourself the headache of the looks like a carb but is really EFI alternatives. At best they are bad compromises, at worst they are useless headaches and a money pit waste of money.


Ed

Here's what I got when I tried to access the link you posted:


Website blocked due
to trojan


We strongly recommend you do not visit this site.


Website blocked: https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...gement-system/

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Here's what I got when I tried to access the link you posted:


Website blocked due
to trojan


We strongly recommend you do not visit this site.


Website blocked: https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...gement-system/

Thanks for the heads up cycleguy.

I've just visited the site to check with Opera, Firefox and Safari without warning of the trojan virus. Has anybody else had the virus warning popup when you visited?

Thx,

Ed

[Gaz64]

Link works fine for me.

[6TNCRZY]

Has anybody used Edelbrock Pro Flow 4 system? If so, what were the results positive and negative.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Thanks for the heads up cycleguy.

I've just visited the site to check with Opera, Firefox and Safari without warning of the trojan virus. Has anybody else had the virus warning popup when you visited?

Thx,

Ed

I'm running 'Malwarebytes Browser Extension' - that's what flagged the site, not the browser itself.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I'm running 'Malwarebytes Browser Extension' - that's what flagged the site, not the browser itself.

That's interesting Brian, so am I and my Malwarebytes does not flag the virus.

I wonder if it is a platform specific alert. I am running a Mac. If you are running a PC the PC version of Malwarebytes might be catching a PC specific version of the virus that does not have a Mac equivalent from that particular virus creator.

If anyone else is getting the virus alert please add to the conversation. As soon as we can get multiple alerts and any helpful specifics surrounding the alert I'll forward the information to the webmaster over there.

There is no need to be unknowingly assisting virus creators in spreading their mayhem.

Ed

[Luce]

DIYAUTOTUNE.COM is a reliable online store. Not sure what the link was, but search for them through you favorite search engine and follow their link if you question it.

[olddog]

For the self tuning systems out their that do not control the timing, congratulations you have replaced a carburetor.

I too have an old MassFlow system that uses an A9L EEC IV. He claimed it was self tuning because Ford programmed the EEC IV to correct the fuel tables based on the O2 sensors. If you have a bone stock 5.0 and used 19 lb./hr injectors the system is as perfect, as Ford made it, which is pretty darn good. As you move away from a stock 5.0 the system becomes less perfectly tuned for your engine.

Later MassFlow chipped the ECU to correct for some of this, but not all of it. I talked with them several times. He insisted that Ford knew more about timing curves than me and all my internet tuning buddies would ever know. I tried to explain to him that Ford did not use the same timing tables for every engine, and that the combustion chamber design impacts how much timing an engine needs. I was not about to pay him to send me a chip if he was going to keep the standard timing tables. I gave up and ended the last phone call. I'm quite certain we both thought the other was an idiot. At least I still do.

That all said the A9L gives a total WOT timing of 28 deg. If you have 36 lb/hr injectors like me, the mass flow sensor was curved to tell the ECU that 19/36th of the true air flow was entering the engine. This gets the fuel right, but wait. Also the ECU thinks the engine displacement is 302 cid. The ECU uses these two numbers to calculate the engine load. The engine load is used to determine how much timing the engine needs. Well if you had a 572 cid engine these two lies would cancel out and all would be good. So for my 347, at anything other than WOT the load is calculated to be significantly lower than it is, so I get way more timing than I need. However my engine does need closer to 34 deg at WOT. I could actually feel a big power change by going from WOT to slightly less and getting the ECU to switch out of the WOT timing map.

Bottom line they left a lot of power on the table. Engines ran pretty well with the fuel correct, but power suffered.

The new system MassFlow is now selling, looks to me to be a great system. The only problem I saw was them not wanting to admit their previous mistakes and recommending that you shouldn't change most of the parameters that you need to change if you have a non factory stock engine. It looked to me to have it all. The fact that they force you to buy a new wire harness, rather than sell an adapter, it put the price tag too high for me. If they had offered it before I had gotten the Quarter Horse chip and everything else to tune my own ECU, I might have went that route.