Is it REAL? Keith Craft takes the Challenge! The Results

[Keithc8]

There were some questions about the air fuel ratio on the dyno sheet and they are a little high. I also had exhaust parometers in the exhaust pipes checking the temps. The exhaus temp was running about 1200 to 1250 through out the pulls and this is well in line. I will have to check the fuel flow meters or air turbine and make sure they are reading correctly. I do believe the engine was running more like 13.5/14 to 1 on air fuel. We will also check this at the othet dyno facility.
I just wanted to correct some miss statements. I do not post or talk about every engine we build nor do I have the time. I have not been posting on any of the engines we have built lately because of the problems it seems to cause. I know and the customer knows and that is enough. Thanks Keith

[Jamo]

Thank you, Keith.

[Slow8]

To Keith and Cracker,

Thanks for sharing and I look forward to more info from the second dyno test.

To Jamo,

Thanks for the hard work, this is mucho bettero in my opiniono.

[BevanWright]

I have found this thread one of the most interesting ones so far. Jamo I know its your job to moderate and everything - but why worry unless people are swearing and actually getting nasty?

Club Cobra seems to attract some negative people, but mostly pretty good people, and it makes the day go quicker having the occassional read of some of the battles.

The technical aspect of this thread has taught me a few things, and the personality side provides light entertainment - so just enjoy everyone!

[bret a ewing]

Jamo and Turk need a hug.

[BB427]

Keith and Cracker,

Than you for all your trouble. This thread has been a hoot at times.

Keith you have NEVER had to prove yourself to me . I ran NHRA for 11 years before switching to IHRA and your reputation is spotless among the ranks.

Who is next??????? Lets call Bob Glidden and Jack Roush liars and see if they respond. Give it a rest.

Brent

[snakeeyes]

Keith,

Are you and your employees sufficiently equipped with disinfectants, rubber gloves, etc. to work on a Bowtie engine? I have an alloy Chevy in my Lister replica. It made 543 hp on the dyno, but the heads are bone-stock Victor Jr.'s. I'd love to see what it could do with a little "attention." I guess your location on the north side of Dallas would be closest?

Thanks,
Bob

[RICK LAKE]

KiethC Congrat's on the motor. I don't want to start a pi$$ing match with you but the A/F at 15.8 is very lean. I am from the old school of 12.7-13.4 is the idea A/F. I know heads chambers vary from head to head. Can you give me a short case of info into this? The 40 degrees of timing is the other, old school is 34-36 max. Are the pistons and the chambers coated? I could see you getting away with this. I would think a set of webers would also get another 20-30 hp out of the mid range on this motor. The higher rpm numbers with more air and less fuel, I just don't under stand and the hp numbers keep going up. When the Blue thunder heads come out, roughly how much for your stage 2 and the heads. I voted for you to make it, I would have thought the tork numbers would have bin higher, but the HP is what you where after. To the other guys, loosen up and do a group HUG I would like to see this thread continiue and NOT BE CLOSED. We can all learn something here. Keith is playing outside the BOX. So far it works. Congats again. Rick Lake

[Jamo]

I would like to see this thread continiue and NOT BE CLOSED. We can all learn something here.

I agree, Rick, which is why so much time has been spent on seperating out the crap so that the thread can continue. I am moving it to Keith's forum so that it won't drop off the page and so that discussions can continue between those that wish to actually DISCUSS Keith's work instead of each other.

[Excaliber]

What kind of spring pressures does a typical hydraulic roller cam use?

I understand solid roller lifters with greater than 150 lbs spring pressure have longevity issues. Can hydraulic run greater than 150 and "live"?

[coyled]

I would like to see what that motor put out at a safer and more realistic 12.5 to 13 to 1 air fuel ratio. At the air fuel ratio's on that graph, and 40 degrees of advance, how could the motor survive on a road course? Maybe at the drag strip for each pass running that lean. How did the ve numbers come in that high at 125 plus? I have a yates headed 358, 12 to 1's running at 13 to 1 air fuel ratio and 30 degrees of timing, that made 670hp on the dyno with ve's in the 114 range. Even at that air fuel ratio and with good fuel, when we tore it down for a refresh, there was detonation evidence on a few of the main bearings. I ran the motor hard on the road course for several years. I am impressed with the hp numbers and think that a good builder like yourself is a huge benefit to members on this forum. But, I would like to understand how you got the VE numbers and how lean can you run these motors and expect tham to last? Thanks, Scott

[Keithc8]

I will try and answer some of the questions I have seen. Yes we do Chevy engines as well at the shop. My partner in the Texas store is building a new tube chassi drag car from Rick Jones Race Cras and we did him a 565 Big Block Chevy that was really nice with the Brodix aluminum block and big Duke heads and a single 4 dominator. This engine produced 800FT/Lbs torque and 1050HP. We were very happy with it.
We run about 140 to 150 seat and 350 to 400 lbs open on the hydraulic rollers with no problems. As said before the problem with the solid roller is to keep some oil to the roller bearing on the lifter.
I believe the fuel turbines or the air flow meter may be of a little on the dyno giving the higher than normal air fuel ratio. I was checking the exhaust temps as well and they were in the 1200 to 1250 range and this is in the area were they should be. I will also check these items again on the other dyno. We richened the carburetor up 4 jets on the front and I believe 6 on the back from where we started. I would not run this on a road race engine with 15 to1 either and would prefer 13 to1 in this case. I will also check and see if the correct fuel specific gravity was entered. Some times the dyno operator may forget to change this from the last dyno session. The regular fuel weighs more than the race fuel and this would richen the numbers as well. Hope this helps a little bit. Thanks Keith

[Excaliber]

..as fate would have it, my motor recently broke a roller lifter resulting in a flat cam and broken rocker arm shaft. Now carefully considering my options and NOT very happy with solid rollers.

Sure did like the horse power though!

[Keithc8]

I understand the concern for the solid roller lifters as they can be a problem on a street car that is idled around a lot and has several miles put on it. The other problem with the 427's that do not have the oil galley through the lifter bores is they do not get as much oil bleed of or leaked on them and the new lifters have a pressure feed sprayer to help oil the roller bearing but with no oil galley this does not work.
We just finished a 482FE in an original 427 side oiler block going in a 68 Shelby GT-500. He drives the car alot and we went with a solid flat-tappetr because he did not have the oil galleys for the hydraulic roller lifters. This engine had a 2x4 set up and idled nicely and made 600ft/lbs torque and 660HP so you still can make good power with a solid flat-tappet. We had a 252/262 @ .050 camshaft with about .620 lift. Everyone was real pleased with the results. We always run the camshaft in with the outer springs and install the inner after the camshaft is broken in. Good luck with your project. Thanks Keith

[RICK LAKE]

Keithc8 Keith PSE made an oiling system for the FE motors that put oil to the mains by tapping into the oil housing. Hollow side bolts got the oil right to the mains. How about a tube kit of steel that went to each lifter bore with a .010" oriaface to supply oil to the lifters. It's better than the splash effect. Anyone tryed this?? Rick Lake Ps this way you could have your solid or hydro and eat your cake too

[Keithc8]

You could do something like this but what we have been doing is drilling the blocks through the lifter bores just like the juice blocks were done. This has worked very well and we can do it for about 350.00 complete and this will allow you to run the hydraulics or the solids with more oil to the lifters. Let me know if we can help in any way. Good luck. Thanks Keith

[RICK LAKE]

Keithc8 I figured that someone had done this. Blue thunder heads, where are we at with them and price with you stage 2 valve job? Comp cam has the beehive springs, are you using them? Have 3 reports on, good and bad. Cam lift around 600 is no problem over that not doing to well. You didn't reply on the lean motor numbers of 15.0- 1? Are you coating the piston and head chambers? 40 degres of timing thats a whole new thing also. You are playing outside the box Just looking for a quick answer. Rick Lake

[misfit41]

I am sure the answer is written in some of the thread,but I'm curious, Cracker did you pay for the refresh ? or was this a freebie ?
just wondering ,,Tim K

[Gatorac]

What were the results of the 2nd dyno run?

[Keithc8]

Cracker could give you all of the details but this was not a freebe deal. To offer quality service and prices it is hard to give away parts and service. I get ask about doing a lot of sponsorship deals and such but feel if someone gets something free someone else has to pay. Cracker and I came to a fair price on the services provided.
The results have been posted in another thread but the HP and torque were about 10HP and 13ft/bls less at the other dyno session. This was without major tuning for the difference in altitude and weather conditions. My shop is at 300ft above sea level and Grimes is about 1300ft above. We also have two different style dynos as well, but all in all the results were pretty close. Thanks, Keith Craft