Vote 428 or aluminum 427FE??

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Ronbo, that's easy, because an older block has soul. Hog wash an older block is any more risky than a new block. Either new or old, if it aint checked out and finished properly it will bite you. I've seen the pictures of a Shelby block with a rod sticking out the side. New anything offers no gaurantee it will always be perfect, there is risk, no matter how you cut it.

If I couldn't find a decent side oiler block, I'd go Genesis, keep's the cost down and either way is an excellent choice from a ROI point of view. Shelby block? Eh, nice call, but I don't think it will return enough in re-sale to warrant the additional expense. Now if your buying it because YOU want to have one, thats cool.

428 is not an option unless your really strapped for cash, then what the heck, consider a 390!

And the failure was because of the block??? (kinda matters) Let's ignore all the threads here alone of problems with the old blocks that occur even after sonic tests and the like, no, you know of one block...

Yes, improper assembly is an additional risk, just like a 40 yr. old block is an additional risk. The 427 started life needing special attention at the plant because of how close the bore was to the limits the FE's bore spacing would allow. I've heard estimates that up to 1/3 of the blocks were found to be unusable either before or after machining. Add 40 yrs worth of water jacket corrosion, stress cracks, ect...

You'll need that extra soul, right on the bottom of your shoes.

Build a 600+HP date correct 427 and let's see how long it holds together. There's a reason no one does this, it's a bad idea.

Cast iron is not some magic material that is immune to metal fatigue, not to mention the refinements to address problem areas that the FE had it's fair share of.

You can't re-create what it was like 40 yrs ago because it's not 40 yrs ago and why would you? Today's recreations are faster, handle better, lighter. Everything a Cobra was about is alive and well and has nothing to do with the year the engine block is. (or the heads, pistons, crank, ect)

I'm going to go out on a limb (not really) and say that I think the cars today are better than they've ever been. (even heard of a guy paying $1 million for a very non-original replica recently)

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Maybe its just me, but the Ironman Cobra needs a true-to-life iron block of the 427 variety. Like this one.

Since that block is NOS, it would be nice if it still had the standard bore.

[RestoCreations]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

Waite a second here....why is the 9.5 compression such a bad thing???
9.5 in a 428 sounds like a motor that will live a long time and put out
great HP....enough to propel that Kirkham into....the twilight zone...

9:1 not 9.5:1 The difference between 9:1 and 10:1 compression can be pretty big when it comes to camshaft selection. I picked a roller cam to run with 10:1. Fortes and Keith Craft will be getting my business from now on.

[Excaliber]

Let's ignore all the threads here alone of problems with the SHELBY BLOCKS...

There, fixed it for ya. There have been PLENTY of discussions concerning trouble with the Shelby blocks. Not to mention the big dollars required for additional machining AFTER you get the block. There is no end to how they can suck your wallet dry. But, there cool, if thats what you want, go for it. Typical Shelby build alloy block will run about $30,000 (ouch).

Hey that KC E-Bay side oiler block is an excellent choice. Did ya notice it's ribbed for more pleasure? Those ribb's mean it's a late 60's, most likely over the counter block, drilled for hydraulic lifters. But you could also run a solid lifter cam, your choice, more pleasure! Keeps your options open, now and in the future.

Rustybob makes a good observation as well, nothing wrong with "run what ya brung". That compression ratio is entirely reasonable. Sure, I'd rather have a 427, but if I had that sitting around, had money invested in it already, I'd have to seriously consider "run what ya brung." I'm running 9.6 to 1 and making plenty power. Most of the time, more than I can hook up with SLICKS! Deck the halls, er, heads and bump it up just a touch.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There, fixed it for ya. There have been PLENTY of discussions concerning trouble with the Shelby blocks. Not to mention the big dollars required for additional machining AFTER you get the block. There is no end to how they can suck your wallet dry. But, there cool, if thats what you want, go for it.

Yes, I have a CSX block, but Ernie please show any evidence of CSX blocks: a) needing any more or less machining that any other block prior to building and b) that have problems and that aren't a very early production block. The very early production CSX blocks had problems. My block number is 931 and has zero problems (knock on wood).

Otherwise you're passing along nonsense idle chatter (HUMOR). That's something I do, since I have no mechanical abilities to speak of. You're way above that.

[RestoCreations]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There, fixed it for ya. There have been PLENTY of discussions concerning trouble with the Shelby blocks. Not to mention the big dollars required for additional machining AFTER you get the block. There is no end to how they can suck your wallet dry. But, there cool, if thats what you want, go for it. Typical Shelby build alloy block will run about $30,000 (ouch).

Hey that KC E-Bay side oiler block is an excellent choice. Did ya notice it's ribbed for more pleasure? Those ribb's mean it's a late 60's, most likely over the counter block, drilled for hydraulic lifters. But you could also run a solid lifter cam, your choice, more pleasure! Keeps your options open, now and in the future.

Rustybob makes a good observation as well, nothing wrong with "run what ya brung". That compression ratio is entirely reasonable. Sure, I'd rather have a 427, but if I had that sitting around, had money invested in it already, I'd have to seriously consider "run what ya brung." I'm running 9.6 to 1 and making plenty power. Most of the time, more than I can hook up with SLICKS! Deck the halls, er, heads and bump it up just a touch.

Ouch, somebody must not be doing any of their own work. Fortes has the block for 5 grand and then it will need final machining and special studs-it looks like it will cost around 6200 by the time it is ready to be assembled.

[Excaliber]

The Shelby blocks have definitely got better with time, as the bugs are worked out. Never the less, in my opinion, you would be a fool to have anybody but a well known shop do the required machining on the block. Gessford or KC for instance. They certainly do require machining that is different from an iron block. Personally I would not trust one to a local machine shop. That fact alone will significantly increase the cost of final assembly. Nothing wrong with EITHER CHOICE, original or modern alloy or iron, IF you get it prepped right, by the right people.

There is no way in hell you can build a Shelby block for anywhere near the cost you could build the KC block offered on E-Bay. That's the point, like all things Shelby, your gonna pay the dollars. Thats fine if your going in with eyes wide open and am prepared to spend what you need to.

[RestoCreations]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There, fixed it for ya. There have been PLENTY of discussions concerning trouble with the Shelby blocks. Not to mention the big dollars required for additional machining AFTER you get the block. There is no end to how they can suck your wallet dry. But, there cool, if thats what you want, go for it. Typical Shelby build alloy block will run about $30,000 (ouch).

Hey that KC E-Bay side oiler block is an excellent choice. Did ya notice it's ribbed for more pleasure? Those ribb's mean it's a late 60's, most likely over the counter block, drilled for hydraulic lifters. But you could also run a solid lifter cam, your choice, more pleasure! Keeps your options open, now and in the future.

Rustybob makes a good observation as well, nothing wrong with "run what ya brung". That compression ratio is entirely reasonable. Sure, I'd rather have a 427, but if I had that sitting around, had money invested in it already, I'd have to seriously consider "run what ya brung." I'm running 9.6 to 1 and making plenty power. Most of the time, more than I can hook up with SLICKS! Deck the halls, er, heads and bump it up just a touch.

a 9.0 compression ratio might be fine with the right cam in a 428 with iron heads for some, but when i build an engine with aluminum heads, i like a 10:1 compression ratio and a cam to match. cam selection and compression ratio are something that must be thought of together when building an engine.

[RodKnock]

I looked at a Cobra prior to purchasing my Kirkham and that Cobra had CSX block number 188 (or something like that). It had leaking problems at the rear main seal, I think due to not having a drainback hole, but I'll let Rick Lake and the rest of the real experts correct and/or expand on that. RIck Lake has two early CSX blocks, if I remember correctly.

[Excaliber]

Gessford.com is a good source of info for the machine work required to get a Shelby block ready to go. It's considerably more detailed and technical than an original iron block, which is no easy task itself!

I'm running iron heads (thus, 9.6), high riser's with BIG valves. Those valves won't clear the bore of a 428, gotta be a 427 if I run them again. I VERY carefully calculated and did a LOT of math (over and over again) to determine the exact proportions my custom pistons would require. It's very complicated stuff and it's NOT uncommon for folks to miss it "just enough" to end up with to much or to little compression. Piston pin height off or any number of variables. Perhaps, in this case, the piston supplier messed up, perhaps those pistons were exactly as spec'd. I won't make that call either way, just saying, it's not the first time I've heard of it happening. It's quite common actually....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The Shelby blocks have definitely got better with time, as the bugs are worked out. Never the less, in my opinion, you would be a fool to have anybody but a well known shop do the required machining on the block. Gessford or KC for instance. They certainly do require machining that is different from an iron block. Personally I would not trust one to a local machine shop. That fact alone will significantly increase the cost of final assembly. Nothing wrong with EITHER CHOICE, original or modern alloy or iron, IF you get it prepped right, by the right people.

There is no way in hell you can build a Shelby block for anywhere near the cost you could build the KC block offered on E-Bay. That's the point, like all things Shelby, your gonna pay the dollars. Thats fine if your going in with eyes wide open and am prepared to spend what you need to.

I'm not sure about bugs, but the early blocks did have a real main leak issue.

I would not have any old machine shop machine any FE that I was building let alone an original side-oiler, CSX, Genesis or Pond block. Period. You need an FE expert.

As for the costs of machining, get a quote from KC for machining that NOS sideoiler versus a CSX block. I willing to bet your money that the machine shop bill would be about the same. Would the machine shop bill difference be $500, $1,000, $2,000...? I think the main difference is that initial cost of $4,500 for the NOS FE versus Resto's CSX quote of $6,200.

[RestoCreations]

I have to say, that KC NOS block looks pretty nice and its a good price if all of the machine work , cam bearings, freeze plugs, etc are already finished and installed. I like those guys and they are originally from my area. Thanks for posting the link. I will give them a ring tomorrow if it doesnt sell.

[Excaliber]

Thats a good comparison, cost of machine shop work alloy vs iron. ADD to that the other required bit's and pieces for the alloy block and the price starts to go up considerably beyond an iron block.

As for MYSELF building an original FE block, I would not hesitate to utilize a local machine shop because I know what I want done, how it should be done, what spec's I want. Then I'll do the assembly myself. Granted, by far most folks are going to need an FE specialist, but not necessarily a Gessford or KC level specialist for an original block. For a Shelby block, your options are more limited, you NEED the best, it WILL cost more. Don't forget the shipping costs back and forth....

Resto, I find myself considering that block as well.

[RodKnock]

I should note that Jay Brown, the FordFE moderator, a racer, an author and generally an FE guru owns and runs FOUR CSX blocks.

[Excaliber]

Heck if money were no object I might run one too!

...mmmm, then again, maybe not, I kind of like my old school block, date coded iron heads and flat tappet cam. The combo's got plenty soul.

I came across an original FE dual point dist at a swap meet the other day, in excellent shape. There for a moment, I found myself actually considering buying it to replace my MSD!!! Then I came to my senses.

[RestoCreations]

Plenty of soul for sure, but i still do not like iron heads. But then again, you have to consider where i live. An all iron engine doesnt run so well in our heat and humidity- can you say fuel percolation, vapor lock?

[Excaliber]

Well if they were common iron heads, I'd have swapped them out already. But if there special, like tunnel port, high riser, etc. it's a tough call giving them up.

[Jamo]

Ernie, with all due respect and from the bottom of my heart...you are full of sh!t.

You've not run a Shelby block...you have blown the hell out of your iron block though.

$30k? Bullsh!t. I've got just about every highend thing that can be shoved into that lump of tin, including machining on the block and the Edlebrock heads, a Velasco crank, T&D stuff up top, originally had a solid roller, etc. and $26K covered it.

As to the rear mains...iron FEs don't leak back there? Since when?

Mine is not a real early block, so I don't know where the "cutoff" is in your analysis, though I do know the blocks have constantly evolved as new things are learned. My Velasco crank has backwards scribing to draw the oil away from the rear, and those two little drain holes (about the size of hummingbird bungholes) were opened up and channeled into a nice rectangle that allows for more flow. I still leave a drop or two...so what?

I'd personally stick with a CSX block , but with Edlebrock heads, per my master builder's thinking. He was building FEs in the 60s...pretty rare (if not the only one) amongst the builders we commonly talk about.

Oh...and for what you're thinking of responding with...bite me.

[Excaliber]

26K is dam close to 30K! Based on what I've heard from you through the years I wouldn't hesitate to have your builder, "Boss Hog" I belive was the name, build one for me! Sounds like you got a good deal too (well, except for maybe that roller lifter thing a few of us went through, iron or alloy).

I've met and examined several high end alloy engines and the cost is often at or close to $30K. No question rear main seal issue's seem to abound on FE's, iron or alloy. With the Shelby, yup, that issue was identified and corrected. There is NO EXCUSE for that with an iron block though, that's just flat out a screw up on the builders part. I took extra ordinary care putting mine in, it don't leak.

Still, you GOT to have the right builder for an alloy block, you just can't cut any corners.

That last alloy block I checked out was in a converted "Eleanor" 'Stang. Motor built in California, shipped to Hawaii. The car was trailered in for the car show, because of the extreme leak at the rear main seal!!! That was less than a year ago, he had just a bit over $30K in it....

Oh, I'd go Ebrock heads myself. I'm not sure, but I suspect the Shelby heads ARE Ebrocks with a "name". Nice name, if your willing to pay for it.

[Jamo]

Well...that assplains it. Even arruminum rusts in Hawaii.

Note my smurk re $26k vs. $30k.

Boghosian, BTW.