Kirkham Skunk Works Sneak Peak :)

[PDUB]

So David, with all this F1 techy stuff, are you going to be able to spin it up like an F1 engine?

Very impressive machine work... it will be interesting to see how that mating surface for the girdle performs under load.

[Don]

David, not having the technical background/knowledge, from both a cost and design point of view, basically, how does machining and casting compare to arrive at the desired end product, as a continuation of KMU Aluminum 201 ?

.......sure is impressive.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Don

David, not having the technical background/knowledge, from both a cost and design point of view, basically, how does machining and casting compare to arrive at the desired end product, as a continuation of KMU Aluminum 201 ?

.......sure is impressive.

Castings are very difficult to get right. There is a ton of engineering and experience that goes into making a casting. You simply don't pour metal down a hole and hope for the best. Sprues, runners, risers, gates, temperature, fluidity, chilling, out gassing, on and on. There are many, many variables in casting. Any small problem in any of them can make a BIG problem in the casting. It is not uncommon to throw away 2, 3, or more castings for every good one you get in a complicated casting when you are starting out. One of the big problems is many times you never know if a casting is good until it is fully machined and you find a big surprise (like a hole) on the final cut.

Machining from billet eliminates most of these problems. It does present its own set of problems, like stress relieving (which is a problem castings have as well--you just can't seem to get away from it) but largely the problems are eliminated.

The strength of a casting vs. a billet (referring to typical alloys here) does not compare--especially at temperature (temperature referring to the temperatures we usually run into with automobiles). Castings soften very quickly in the 250 degree range, which is not uncommon for engines, heads, and calipers. As the temperature goes up, the stiffness (and strength) goes way, way down.

David

[slider701]

David,

What will the final version of the engine look like in terms of other trick items??

Some items I could think of would be dry sump oiling, Kirkham billet aluminum flywheel, billet hemi style heads with coil on plug and distributor-less ignition with hidden ignition wiring, billet valve covers and intake manifold, ????

So far it is looking pretty awesome. Working at your place would be a dream job for a mechanical engineer like myself. I am beyond envious of Sandwich !!!

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by PDUB

So David, with all this F1 techy stuff, are you going to be able to spin it up like an F1 engine?

Very impressive machine work... it will be interesting to see how that mating surface for the girdle performs under load.

F1 engines at red line are music. It is amazing what those engineers have done over the years.

The girdle should perform well. That basic design is used on many high performance engines.

David

[David Kirkham]

It seems our billet block has attracted a lot of attention. The Land Speed guys are carrying on a conversation about it as well. Rick Byrnes emailed this to their group. He said I could post it.

The land speed guys stress their engines more than anyone else. F1 lifts for the turns. Drag Racing (don't want to put those crazy guys down) only hold it for a few seconds--granted those few seconds are like a bomb). But the land speed guys hold the pedal to the metal for 5 miles--flat out--100% of "I'm giving her all she's got, Captain!" They hold that at 200, 300, 400 miles per hour. Truly a breed apart of classic good old American garage engineering. Those guys have a "can do" spirit few can match.

His email to the group starts here:

"I have a little experience with Alum castings. Mostly die cast and Semi
permanent mold, and some with Iron castings.

In aluminum no experience with parts as big as a cylinder block, but having
tested smaller parts ( 4.6L Front cover) that were cast, verses billet, I
found the
mechanical strength of the billet part FAR better than any casting which is
full of air bubbles of various sizes.
Almost regardless of alloy. (I no longer have any data), the density of
the material is so consistent in a billet part, and with stress relieving
and additional heat treat the block will be indestructible. (and very
repairable.)

Besides, they do it because they can.

If you consider this the rapid protyping and very limited production (1 copy
per week or less) I'll bet the cost per piece will beat cast parts including
tooling and the learning process for vents and sprews.

Way back I did a 2.3Liter block for Ford SVO. I was working with and visiting
our engine plant and casting center at Taubate, Brasil on a regular basis.
We modified old water jacket cores, and added lots of iron to the main webs
and skirt, Siamese bores and .750" deck. In all added 26 pounds of Iron.

My point is
The casting/learning process required over 1000 parts to get 200 good usable
blocks. Many times the airbubbles/voids would not show up till almost the
end of the machining process.

I have visited Kirkhams, and looked at their parts. They produce
extraordinary products and I think they are bringing the FE into the present
time. They are using current technology to update the classic powerplant.
I don't think there is much of an economic slump for the folks that can
afford the Kirkham products.

The Billet 427 sure is a perfect engine into their roadster or Daytona
Coupe. Absolutely over the top."

Rick Byrnes

[lovehamr]

Hi David, loving the machine porn! I do have a question though. It looks like the rear main is machined for the factory type seal. Is this so?

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Hi David, loving the machine porn! I do have a question though. It looks like the rear main is machined for the factory type seal. Is this so?

Yes, it is the factory type seal. If anyone has any better ideas, we are all ears! We looked and looked at the seal and didn't see any obvious way to improve it without changing the crankshaft.

On the bright side, the block is billet (not a casting), so we can change it rather easily

David

[fordracing65]

The block is amazing, next will be to upggrade the old fe head with a new super high flowing billet head, think of that block, state of the art, with brand new state of the art heads, lots of power to be found in them heads.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

The block is amazing, next will be to upggrade the old fe head with a new super high flowing billet head, think of that block, state of the art, with brand new state of the art heads, lots of power to be found in them heads.

We have thought seriously about a billet head. We are just thinking about how to make it work without too much headache.

David

[slider701]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

We have thought seriously about a billet head. We are just thinking about how to make it work without too much headache.

David

What if you designed the heads in a way that the combustion chambers were actually separate from the head and installed after the head was machined. You could machine the chamber inserts so they are an interference fit and have to be either pressed in place or super cooled and installed in a hot head, then staked or tacked in place. That way you could machine the water jackets inside the heads, then install the chambers afterward.

Sealing would be a challenge, along with keeping the strength of the head.

I guess I would have see the Solidworks model and start sectioning it to visualize how to machine it out of a solid chunk of metal.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by slider701

What if you designed the heads in a way that the combustion chambers were actually separate from the head and installed after the head was machined. You could machine the chamber inserts so they are an interference fit and have to be either pressed in place or super cooled and installed in a hot head, then staked or tacked in place. That way you could machine the water jackets inside the heads, then install the chambers afterward.

Sealing would be a challenge, along with keeping the strength of the head.

I guess I would have see the Solidworks model and start sectioning it to visualize how to machine it out of a solid chunk of metal.

We have thought of exactly that. You are right, the sealing is the catch. A head is a very harsh environment with temperature and pressure and all sorts of fun.

David

[slider701]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

We have thought of exactly that. You are right, the sealing is the catch. A head is a very harsh environment with temperature and pressure and all sorts of fun.

David

OK........thought about it more. Come at it from the other end.........from the valve train side. Make the area where the valve seats are as a removable plate so you can get into the backside of the combustion chambers and intake/exhaust runners to machine the water jackets. It then becomes much easier to seal off the water jackets into the valve train area without having to worry about combustion gas pressures.

[fordracing65]

I know one method of f1 cylinder head sealing, one being machined byrillium copper rings, but beryillium copper i heard is dangerous when heated, Ping wont make golf clubs out of beryllium anymore due to some kind of government regulation.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I know one method of f1 cylinder head sealing, one being machined byrillium copper rings, but beryillium copper i heard is dangerous when heated, Ping wont make golf clubs out of beryllium anymore due to some kind of government regulation.

Beryllium is toxic to a percentage of the population. It is really only used in aerospace now. (Racing heads do use it for valve seats. The only thing higher than its thermal conductivity is the cost

David

[fordracing65]

When is a DOHC engine in the makes , the way they rev is fun.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

When is a DOHC engine in the makes , the way they rev is fun.

It's all we can do to keep up with SOHC motors

David