Kirkham vs. ERA

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I was joking.

Sorry, went over my head.

"On the other hand, I don't want another case of Porsche-itis where I can't drive the thing at all."

Uh, please don't diss Porsche. There are a bazillion of them with plenty of miles on them. Too many miles. The hard part for me is finding one with low mileage.

[LMH]

In terms of accuracy of the body, both are very accurate to original. Each is copied from a different original though.
Larry

[Flygirl]

Wow, thanks guys. And thanks for the links and info, too.

Research is continuing.

And, a point of clarification, I'm actually looking at used Kirkham(s) as opposed to a new one. Although I'm definitely experiencing budget creep upward, there's no way it'll creep that far up, I'm afraid.

[acindrich]

I can't speak authoritatively about an ERA. I own a Kirkham. I have a friend that built an ERA and it's a very nice car, and he did a very nice job, and it looks amazing. My car is polished with racing stripes and has quite the patina on it. Nothing that can't be polished out, but frankly, I like the way it looks. It looks used and it definitely IS used. I've put almost 18k miles on it in three years and taken it to the track for the last three open tracks. The car is phenomenal on the track. I think what I love most is that its as close to a sixties era cobra without the price tag. So, its made out of the same material as an original, has the same frame as an original and it comes with all the same shakes, rattles and noises of an original. It was a rough car then and it's as rough today. I, personally, love that. I guess this is long version of what could been a very short, heavily biased opinion to "go with the Kirkham!" It's as close to real as you can get, and if "real-ness" if anything what you're after, you will not be disapointed. I do have one piece of advise, that's been stated already, go visit Kirkham Motorsports and ERA and use the visits as part of your decision making. And, finally, if you can make it out to the next open track day at Miller Motorsports park you can take my car out and beat on it. It'll grease the check for sure.

[Flygirl]

Originally Posted by acindrich

And, finally, if you can make it out to the next open track day at Miller Motorsports park you can take my car out and beat on it. It'll grease the check for sure.

Real-ness is pretty important to me. I'm not sure why, it kind of defies logic, but it seems to be.

I fly for a living, and operate machines which might overload my brain and kill me if I'm not careful.

Thank you for the kind offer to come out and drive your car. I'd be worth the trip!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

Real-ness is pretty important to me. I'm not sure why, it kind of defies logic, but it seems to be.

If I remember correctly, then the original aluminum bodies from the 1960's were made from .050" thick aluminum and the Kirkham aluminum bodies are made from .059" thick aluminum.

Honestly, you can't go wrong with either a SPF, ERA or KMP. All excellent choices at different price points. As for "realness", the ERA is closer than the SPF and the Kirkham is "more closer" than ERA.

Since you're buying used, there's no need to worry about lead times on new bodies. Otherwise the ERA might take about 9-12 months or more.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Since you're buying used, there's no need to worry about lead times on new bodies. Otherwise the ERA might take about 9-12 months or more.

I thought she was thinking about buying a new ERA, customized to her liking? Getting something exactly the way you want it is a big deal, you know....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

And, a point of clarification, I'm actually looking at used Kirkham(s) as opposed to a new one. Although I'm definitely experiencing budget creep upward, there's no way it'll creep that far up, I'm afraid.

My fault. I thought I read something about a switch from new purchase to used purchase, but that was just for a Kirkham.

[thndrrd]

If you want to experience driving a cobra, the only way you can do this it to buy an original or buy a Kirkham. This isn't saying the others are bad, but all use different types of frames, bodies and suspension systems. The Kirkham was engineered from an original car. You can purchase the Kirkham set up like the original, suspension and all, or upgrade to Billit suspension parts. I recommend the later. My car is painted, however, many of the owners prefer the natural finish, either polished or satin. Just like any car, you have to take care of it. The aluminum doesn't seem to have any additional problems over paint, but both take some time to keep up.

All reproductions can be built and driven to enjoy the essesence of a cobra, but only the Kirkham really reproduces the original experience. You have to decide if that's important to you. If not, a less expensive replica may serve your purpose.

If you meld the Kirkham chassis with a 90 degree V small block or a FE big block, you can really appreciate what the drivers from the 1960s went through to win races. They are a handful.

The other refreshing part of a Kirkham purchase is the guys that sell you cars are the same guys that engineered them. That is a rare commodity these days. They stand behind what they sell, and they sell the best.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by thndrrd

If you want to experience driving a cobra, the only way you can do this it to buy an original or buy a Kirkham.

All reproductions can be built and driven to enjoy the essesence of a cobra, but only the Kirkham really reproduces the original experience. You have to decide if that's important to you. If not, a less expensive replica may serve your purpose.

I would take the Pepsi Challenge that blindfolded, 9 out of 10 people would pick my rickety old 427 FE Hurricane over your refined Kirkham as "the more realistic sounding, smelling, riding and handling Cobra."

I think a better argument can be made that if you want the original experience, meaning a roughly-assembled, poorly finished, poorly wired, rough-around ALL edges, heat-soaked, unfit, unrefined, unforgiving, tooth-rattling, just-on-the-edge race car, DON'T buy a Kirkham. Frankly, the Kirkhams would have to dial it waaaay back a few notches to deliver what you got from Shelby in the 60s. Which brings me to an idea. Hey David, Fender guitars charges double for their "Relic Stratocasters".....which they weather and abuse to look circa 1960's. How 'bout a Relic Kirkham?

[thndrrd]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I like all of the replica's. Buying any of these cars shows that you are really a car guy. It may interest you to know that many clients of Kirkham Motor Sports purchase their cars strictly to race. That is why the Kirkhams introduces their hybred cross between the FIA and the 427 S/C. The wide body car is not as aerodynamic as the FIA.

When you talk about a raw race car, the Kirkham is as raw as they come. A tube chassis with rivited aluminun body panels. No power steering and no power brakes. You can even order a lightweight model that when mated with an all aluminun small block comes in at around 1900 pounds.

These cars are raced continually.

If you think this is cool, wait until they come out with the coupe.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by thndrrd

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend...

Don't worry about that -- no one around here offends easily. By the way, have you ever driven one of our Cobras? ie, Kirkham, ERA, Backdraft, SPF, etc.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by thndrrd

No power steering and no power brakes.

Wow, I had no idea. I guess they don't have power mirrors either?

Just giving you a little of what I got when I arrived here. . I think that what constitutes the "cobra experience" is highly subjective and for that reason, each person should be able to see and feel for themselves what constitutes that experience. To call out one "brand" above all others because it happens to be your brand and then make a blanket statement suggests that no matter what she buys, Flygirl can't have the Cobra experience unless she buys what you bought.

I looked at Kirkhams in the fall of 2009 when I bought my Hurricane. I wound up spending the difference I saved between the two on Apple stock at $195/share. So I may not have the "Cobra experience", but I am surely having an Apple experience.

Welcome to CC. Post pictures of your KMP.

[fastd]

For me, I chose ERA (289 FIA) for a couple of reasons:
1. It was cheaper
2. At first, I thought that I "needed" aluminum. However, I read somewhere that Shelby originally wanted fiberglass but then stumbled onto AC - I am sure the historians on this website will help me straighten my facts. That allowed me to feel better about fiberglass.
3. To me, the Kirkham is a museum quality, near perfect (better than the original) reproduction; I wanted to "drive" mine hard if I wanted to without worry - it seemed like the ERA would allow me to do that. I also got a little intimidated by aluminum in terms of durability and repair.
4. The ERA look I think is perfect and I think it is engineered in way that is so much better than the original, but with the proper amount of respect for the original shape and design.
5. Resale value: I think that they are both pretty close.
6. I live on the East Coast and the guys at ERA are great; the shop is worth the trip. I betcha if I lived on the West Coast, I probably would have bought a Kirkham.

Good luck.

[AL427SBF]

Money not being a consideration, the Kirkham seems to be the recognized "top of the line" replica. The Complete Guide To Cobra Replicas always gives Kirkham top billing. But this discussion did trigger a question - what are the chassis+body weights of the Kirkham vs. ERA?
----

[Avmaviator]

Like some have said, seeing these cars in real life makes a huge difference in the "emotional" part of your decision, which lets face it, is important.

I had seen many cobras before, FF5, SPF, etc... all looked fantastic. Then I saw some pictures of the Kirkhams... right away I was drawn to them. Then I saw the real ones at their shop. It will really triggers something in you, well it did for me at least. When you see these amazing bodies, the finish, the details, the billet, etc...it gets to you. We buy these cars for different reasons, but a huge reason is how the car is going to make you feel. That feeling comes from the driving sensations, the visual sensations, and the other senses. The Kirkham cobra fill all these categories for me. I know it sound sappy but it is true

[Flygirl]

Originally Posted by decooney

Flygirl,

1. How do you REALLY plan to use the car, and how often?

2. What is "most" important to you about the car?

3. What is "next" most important to you about the car?

1. I plan to drive it on the weekends locally (to enjoy the drive to my mom's and park in her garage for the night) or to my place of work on a nice day (the drive is easy, relatively traffic free and parking is secure and not crowded), or to the Sierra foothills or Napa or Russian River valleys for road tripping and perhaps a bit of wine tasting, or for a Cobra get together, or at up to 8/10ths, alone on the twisites early Sunday morning, or a local shine and show event.

Longer trips would be up to three or four day expeditions, likely remaining in CA and done in only the more temperate months. These would be lower/medium budget, staying at reasonably priced accommodations and doing activities not requiring a large wardrobe, valet parking of the car, worrying about my hair, etc. It would be about the car and driving and seeing where the road takes me.

2. What's most important about the car is a balanced blend of rawness, reliability, power and streetability. Balance. I don't mind if I'm wearing ear plugs and my ears are still ringing a bit at the end of the day, or if it gets too cold or hot in the cockpit. What I do mind is if it overheats at the first stop light or isn't reliable enough for those longer trips. But, like I said before, I want it to feel nicely overpowered to where it can scare me a little.

3. Next most important is an accurate body and period correctness, and as little of the kit car feel as is possible.

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

Like some have said, seeing these cars in real life makes a huge difference in the "emotional" part of your decision, which lets face it, is important.

I had seen many cobras before, FF5, SPF, etc... all looked fantastic. Then I saw some pictures of the Kirkhams... right away I was drawn to them. Then I saw the real ones at their shop. It will really triggers something in you, well it did for me at least. When you see these amazing bodies, the finish, the details, the billet, etc...it gets to you. We buy these cars for different reasons, but a huge reason is how the car is going to make you feel. That feeling comes from the driving sensations, the visual sensations, and the other senses. The Kirkham cobra fill all these categories for me. I know it sound sappy but it is true

I've driven two ERAs, both 427FE cars, they were very very nice. I'm hoping to see a Kirkham later this week; really excited about that prospect. I've also driven two SPFs, both with stroked Windsors. That's the extent of my personal experience so far.

You're not being sappy at all. It is about the feeling for me, too. It's like the difference between my former Lexus and my former Porsche. The Lexus was engineered to somehow simulate "the feeling." The Porsche just had "the feeling" as a result of the engineering. This car is all about the feeling. I mean, it's so illogical in every way imaginable, how can it not be?

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I was joking. Seriously though, the first time you start working your way down the Interstate through heavy traffic and realize how many idiots want to catch up to you and chide you on to "show 'em what ya got," you will realize how many people are really capable of putting you in a ditch with no warning to you. No way I would ever move 10' in my car without shoulder harnesses.

Hey, now!
:-)

I haven't yet experienced much of this in my, oh, hour of total time in all the Cobras I've driven. But I can see how it'd be kind of annoying after a little while.

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Both cars have excellent pedigrees. If I decide to buy versus build my next car, I will buy a Kirkham as well. But I am glad to have owned this less expensive Hurricane first. I have learned some things that would have been veeryyy painful to learn in an aluminum car.

[gulp]

This sounds ominous. I, too, am concerned about the aluminum body, and have yet to see why I shouldn't be. But still researching...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Flygirl

3. Next most important is an accurate body and period correctness, and as little of the kit car feel as is possible.

The ERA has a square-tubed frame. The Kirkham is round like the original. If that makes a difference.

FWIW, I wanted aluminum and I wanted unpainted. They're just very unique. The polished variety even more so.

[AL427SBF]

Feeling a bit self conscious at the moment. I don't want to come across as some wealthy woman who just throws money around. This is a big, big deal for me and I've saved for a long time to accumulate the money I have in my car fund (although buying a Cobra is a more recent development and that's why I'm doing my research now).

Not at all and you're doing exactly what you ought to be doing, asking questions and getting smart on the subject. Hopefully you will stay the course and end up with one or the other, both are top notch but the Kirkham is the "gold standard" imo. Buzz described the cobra best when the question was asked why these replicas are so popular among replica purchasers. Even I was surprised at Buzz's articulation of what makes these cars unique, carbon monoxide poisoning aside, the grease monkey got it right

The Cobra is a perfect storm of classically beautiful proportions and lines enhanced by functional modifications that really deliver on the visual promise of formidable performance. Starting with the timelessly pleasing shape of John Tojeiro's barchetta body, the Cobra sort of accidentally evolved into an automotive icon that manages to be both obscenely voluptuous and menacingly aggressive in appearance.

Nothing in that shape is a styling exercise - it's all functional and it elicits a strong reaction from everyone who sees it - from toddlers to the elderly, male and female alike. The reaction varies from person to person as the look of the car stirs a different part of different people's souls, but guaranteed, there's always a reaction. Unlike the majority of other automobiles, you cannot remain indifferent when you see, hear, smell or feel a Cobra.

Then of course, there's the performance. Both small and big block Cobras deliver the goods to driver and passenger in a direct, unfiltered manner that goes straight to the seat of the pants. You receive powerful inputs of sound, smells, g-forces and a view across the most curvaceous hood and fenders you've ever seen.

At least four of your senses are bombarded with a staggering shot of direct inputs that are normally softened, dampened, insulated and otherwise censored in ordinary cars. You never walk away from a fast drive in a Cobra without feeling the familiar effects of adrenaline overload - not unlike the vibrating rush you feel after surviving a near death experience.

Cobras are simply about visceral extremes. Extreme beauty, extreme sound and extreme performance. Its the unfiltered, adult, alcoholic, XXX version of the automobile - not for the meek or faint of heart; and above all: THE SURGEON GENERAL WARNS THAT THIS AUTOMOBILE CAN BE ADDICTIVE AND HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!

[elmariachi]

Buzz did well, but the quintessential of Cobra tributes was written by Hal Copple (who owns a SPF). Natalie, this is it in a nutshell, every last word:

"If you want to just gas and go, and never have to worry about replacing an alternator, or snugging down the header bolts, or getting a wet leg driving in a rainstorm, or learning how to set your carb float level, or driving in traffic on a warm winter day with "winter gas" in the tank, get the 'Vette.

With a Replica, even a Superformance, you have to remind yourself that you are driving a hand made race car on the street. There is no compromise for anything other than pure speed. These cars are brutal and unforgiving, with all the refinement of a medieval battle ax. Like being in a relationship with an exotic dancer, you can never take anything for granted. These cars don't have millions of miles of testing refinement before you get yours. For any trip longer than an hour, you need earplugs, and goggles, and carry Advil and eye drops. You will need to learn to "read" the clouds for rain in your path, and have experience in unwrapping your frozen fingers from the MotoLita. You will experience lady passengers "wetting" the passenger seat when you merge into traffic from an on ramp, and then nearly burn their calf getting out of the car.

You will have all the invisibility of a burning Hindenburg, and flee from underground parking lots with uncountable car alarms screaming your departure. When you stop, you will remind yourself that these cars get more attention than a dead body in a parking lot.

With a power to weight ratio better than almost every supercar, you will find your 1/4 mile times traction rather than power limited. On the other hand, when you stage, out of the corner of your helmet's visor you will see almost the entire audience lining up at the fence, most with cameras up. If you track on a road course with a Porsche club, owners of expensive German machines will come to the fence to watch you power out in smoking oversteer. You won't even try to start your engine in the garage, but push it out onto the driveway, else your loyal watch dog will croak from the exhaust fumes. If you idle next to other "sports" cars at a traffic light, by the green, their girlfriend will be coughing green phlegm into her hanky, yelling at her date to just go! When you refuel, you might as well prop the "bonnet" open, because you are going to have to show your motor to just about every other guy there. When you order your wings at Hooters, your waitress will whisper in your ear "take me for a ride." When you stop at the red light, the girl in the convertible next to you will invite you to "take my top off too."

When you slowly pass a troop of Harley riders, they will look over and give you thumbs up. When you want to ease out into traffic, other cars will immediately pause to let you go ahead of them. When your engine has its hot, crackling, intimidating exhaust sidepipe aimed right at the flank of the GTO, or the Z28, your exhaust pulsations slowly unscrewing his lug nuts, the other car will remain motionless, as if the slightest quiver of his car will cause your car to stomp it dead. When you leave it open in a parking lot, and come back to find your sunglasses and cell phone still sitting on the tunnel, it is because your car has sullenly warned those who came over to admire it "touch me and I will rise up here and kill you dead."

When you put that tiny silver key into the ignition, and begin your start countdown, your car will whisper "take me for granted, and I will kill you." When other drivers just hop in and snap up their belts while backing out of their parking space, you will still have two more minutes before you even get all the Simpson's properly on and snugged down. Pulling up in a Cobra replica is like landing an F4U at an ultralite convention.

In summary, very, very few drivers want this kind of attention, or can tolerate all that a formidable Replica demands. These cars are intolerant mistresses. But remember, there will come a day when you have to hang up your car keys for the last time. And perhaps you want to say then "I did it."