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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2007, 10:03 AM
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Default Kirkham FIA body shape

When I was at the SAAC convention in 2006, I believe the FIA car from the Shelby Collection had a sign saying it was the only FIA car that was not rebodied, so I assume all of the FIA cars might be a little bit different.

Which original FIA car was used as the model for the Kirkham cars?

When I was looking at the Kirkham website, some of the FIA cars did not have an oil cooler opening in the nose, and another one just looked like a opening was cut into the nose there. I'm not sure either looked right.

How accurate is the Kirkham FIA body shape to the orignal FIA cars?
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:21 AM
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As best I can remember: the oil cooler opening below the radiator opening was added during the european campaign ('64 season). I'm not sure who actually did the modification - if it was Remington it was probably as good a job as could be done anywhere. From what I read, the body was cut and stretched to make a "scoop" - - so the "FIA body shape" could be, imo, with or without scoop.

IMO, no two cars had the exact same rear flares. Probably each car was different in otherways from race to race.

"How accurate is the Kirkham FIA body shape to the orignal FIA cars?" Which race, which season?

IMO, this is a moving target - choose a look you like and go with that.

Disclaimer: this is my opinion and only my opinion blahblahyaddayadda . . .
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:42 AM
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1ntCobra,

I do not remember which car we copied, I will let Thomas answer that one. I believe it was a car from Europe. That said, everyone needs to remember, all of the FIA/USRRC cars are different. They were changed, modified, wrecked, burnt, engine swapped, and who knows what else through the course of their lives--all to suit the needs of a particular race or race track. As such, there is considerable debate about the oil cooler scoop on an FIA car as there are pictures of about anything you can think of floating around. Nevertheless, I can tell you why we did what we did.

When we first started the company and had our first 289 FIA car here, Peter Brock came by and told us our oil cooler scoops were not correct. (They looked similar to a 427 oil cooler scoop.) We found out when Brian Angliss of AC cars made replacement bodies for the 289 FIA cars through th 70's and 80's he made the oil cooler scoop look like the 427 oil cooler scoop because it looked "better." Somehow, that stuck as what an original car was supposed to look like. No "original" car ever had that scoop.

Peter told us that the original FIA car didn't even have an oil cooler scoop AT ALL. Quickly, of course, they figured out they needed the oil cooler as they were beating on the engines in races. If you need an oil cooler, you need air. If you need air, you need a hole. If you need a hole...you get out the tin snips.

So, what did they do? Peter took out a magic marker and drew an oval shaped opening on the nose of one of our 289 cars that didn't have an oil cooler scoop in it (as by then we knew our oil cooler scoops were not correctly shaped so we quit putting them in).

He just exclaimed, "THERE, CUT THAT HOLE IN THE VALENCE!"

"WHAT?!?!!???," I said in disbelief, "Just hack a hole?"

Peter replied, "David remember these were RACE cars. We beat the hell out of them. The furthest thing from our mind was what the cars would be worth 30 years later. Just cut a hole in the valence and that's it!. If you want a little more air, just pull the valence down. That is how the ORIGINAL cars were done."

Who am I to argue with Peter? I got out the air saw and cut a hole. Peter then pulled the bottom lip down and said, "Yea, that looks about right, but you cut the hole a little too neatly."

Fast forward to today.

We do not make the 289 cars with the 427 scoop--unless a customer specifically asks for it.

The 289 FIA cars we made for Shelby, however, had the 427 type scoop in them. That is what they wanted. Interestingly, you know that scoop is not original because the 289 FIA brake duct scoops will not fit on the nose of a car that has the 427 type oil cooler scoop in it.

David
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Last edited by David Kirkham; 07-10-2007 at 12:31 PM..
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:04 PM
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I learn new stuff every day on this board! Thanks guys.

Steve
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:42 PM
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Here's some pictures from my gallery of CSX 2345 (FIA) and CSX 2431 (USRRC/FIA). They have similar oil cooler scoops. Note the sign for 2345 says that the oil cooler scoop was done at the AC factory, which is different than what Pete Brock told you, so I'm not sure if the Shelby Collection has its facts straight. The sign also claims that only 2 of the FIA cars still exist, hmm...









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Old 07-10-2007, 01:43 PM
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1ntCobra,

I have seen (and crawled all over those cars) at Bill Murry's shop. He was very kind to let us take a million photos. We even have some close up shots--somewhere...not sure where, however.

Those scoops could very well have been made by the AC factory. I frankly don't know. My "original" comment was referring to the "1st" race cars they build, not so much original as in terms of "what is right, or correct." If you look very closely at those scoops, they are actually not very much like a 427 scoop. They are more of a bent "U" shaped piece of aluminum that was just "stuck on" the hole because the needed a bigger scoop. Every car was different in different ways and every car evolved over time as it was raced. "Originality" had little meaning to them back then.

David
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Peter took out a magic marker and drew an oval shaped opening on the nose of one of our 289 cars that didn't have an oil cooler scoop in it (as by then we knew our oil cooler scoops were not correctly shaped so we quit putting them in).

He just exclaimed, "THERE, CUT THAT HOLE IN THE VALENCE!"
I'm with Pete on this one... I think, as well, that any formed and molded oil-cooler scoop, ala 427-style, on an FIA replica is modern and incorrect.

Remember that there only was FIVE of these cars.

Looking at vintage pics of at least three of them show an opening that really looks like they just whacked a hole in the sheet metal below the grille opening.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kirkham
1ntCobra,

When we first started the company and had our first 289 FIA car here, Peter Brock came by and told us our oil cooler scoops were not correct. (They looked similar to a 427 oil cooler scoop.) We found out when Brian Angliss of AC cars made replacement bodies for the 289 FIA cars through th 70's and 80's he made the oil cooler scoop look like the 427 oil cooler scoop because it looked "better." Somehow, that stuck as what an original car was supposed to look like. No "original" car ever had that scoop...

The 289 FIA cars we made for Shelby, however, had the 427 type scoop in them. That is what they wanted. Interestingly, you know that scoop is not original because the 289 FIA brake duct scoops will not fit on the nose of a car that has the 427 type oil cooler scoop in it.

David
We copied a car that had an Angliss FIA body. That is why our first cars had the incorrect oil cooler scoop in them. It wasn't until Peter Brock told us that we knew that we had copied an "updated FIA" version of the car. I was told that Brian hated the original FIA oil cooler scoop and updated it to the "427 style" oil cooler.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:51 PM
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If you look at the above pictures you will see that CSX2345 oil cooler scoop is original. CSX2431 oil cooler scoop looks very nicely done. Does anyone have any pictures of 2431 "in the day?"
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:53 PM
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Also looking thru the Kirkham website gallery, I only saw one picture of an FIA from the rear. It did not have the trunk dimples for the FIA suitcase, which I think were added at the AC factory.

Your company seems pretty flexible, so I suspect that a customer could ask that their Kirkham FIA car could be made to look like any particular FIA car at a given point in time, based upon period pictures or such.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:28 PM
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Here's an interesting link I found:

http://www.thecobraferrariwars.com/1254225.html

It does confirm that the oil cooler scoops were added later.
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