Its over, the Dems win

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Ralphy

Bomelia I read that article maybe 2 days ago. Also hows about paying for healthcare 4 years in advance so they could fudge the numbers by the CBO. Ex, it's all an illusionnn......

Yeah, but somebody plz help me find it!

[Wayne Maybury]

A couple of comments about Canada's healthcare system, drugs, etc.

Firstly most Canadians have a relatively positive opinion about our healthcare system. The problems lie in the over crowding primarily because people go to the ER's, that do not really need professional care. I firmly believe that there should be a minimal charge for visiting a doctor or hospital. This would put dollars into the system and more importantly, it would reduce the number of unnecessary visits. We also have a problem with non-citizens coming into the country to obtain free health care that they cannot get in their own country. Our Medicare cards are being updated in an attempt to cut down on fraud.

Secondly, the drug manufacturers have nothing to do with our socialized healthcare system. These pharmaceutical companies are usually Canadian subsidiaries of US or other major drug companies. Our laws protecting name brand drugs are not exactly the same as the US laws however. Many US citizens, especially the elderly, living close to the Canadian border routinely come up here to get their perscriptions as our prices tend to be lower. This was especially true before the US dollar went in the toilet but that is another story.

Each country has it's own drug approval process. The US has the FDA and Canada has Health Canada. Our two countries work in a very similar way but there is no guarantee that a drug approved in the US will also be approved in Canada, and vice versa. That does not mean to say that drugs authorized for sale in Canada are dangerous or unsafe, they are just not (yet) authorized for sale in the US. Most dangerous drugs tend to be produced somewhere in the world and then sold over the internet by who-knows-who. These internet drug sites can indeed be selling dangerous products as they are totally uncontrolled.

Wayne

[Ron61]

Wayne,

The people flooding to the emergency rooms is a problem here already and this crappy so called health care bill isn't even law yet. They have had two investigations into the two hospitals here about people going to the emergency room and having to wait hours for any treatment. But first they don't work them like a triage and take the worst first regardless of when they came in, and second we have to many that ruin in every time they get a splinter in their finger and it is free so they just fill the emergency rooms up all day long. It is also another great excuse for getting a day off work and still getting paid for it. I don't know what they can do about it as it isn't the hospitals fault, and they are already short of doctors and nurses. I think a minimum charge would be a great idea. All the investigations came up with was they have to do better, but no suggestions as to how.

Ron

[SP01715]

I had Kaiser for a couple years, and everything was fine until I started having nuero problems that were unusual. I kept getting PA's while I was waiting to see a nueroligist, and it was way above their knowledge base. I since have changed to a much better plan and see a doctor instead of PA's, and it is a night and day difference. I am also in the VA system for service connected stuff, and I think most would be shocked at how poor this system works. Most people have no idea how bad the government is at running things. Thinking that they can run a health care system much larger than the VA in a competent manner is a fantasy.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

No I didn't miss that, it's another example of Republican spin, sustained, altered and further twisted by the radical right. The OMB estimate, and granted it is only an estimate, was only SLIGHTLY reduced from it's original number. The projection is the deficit will STILL be substantially reduced.

SPO1715, if you don't believe the estimate it is likely you don't understand how the calculations were made. A more reasonable approach would be to question the math than to dismiss the calculations.

And how often has OMB been right, historically? Sorry I had to use that word liberals hate and don't understand.

But every time they make a tough call, they;re wrong.

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

SPO1715, if you don't believe the estimate it is likely you don't understand how the calculations were made. A more reasonable approach would be to question the math than to dismiss the calculations.

Would you please explain to me how the calculations are made?

[bomelia]

Anybody know where the PDF is for the current Senate Health Care Destruction bill? Get this, (and I would like to prove it) parts of the bill contain wording that say no future congress can repeal or change the bill.

mike

[Wes Tausend]

...

I haven't paid much attention to the actual health care bill but I probably know as much about it as any here.

I can say that the atrocious amount paid for my monthly health insurance meets or exceeds the amount of federal with-holding out of my check, a shocking ratio.

Now I will maintain that I earn this "benefit" because I, and my actual boat-rower worker kind, earn every nickel that my company makes, including pay for the management guys calling cadence, freeloading stockholders riding in the boat and government guy sitting in the back regulating us all. We earn it by doing 100 percent of the rowing that moves the packed rowboat.

With the real and only creation of wealth firmly established, we can concentrate on the ratio I first mentioned up above.

My health insurance, therefore healthcare, costs as much as is needed to run the entire rest of the country. Either running a country is an incredible bargain or healthcare is way, way overpriced.

Which leads me to wonder where all the health money is going. I wonder if some of it is being used to buy the pricy abysmal lying ads on TV that tout, it is better to leave things the way they are? In that case I'm being tricked into paying for my own rectal assault.

I can't help but think that if I paid just a little more, I could have vaseline. I bet they get free vaseline in Canada.

John Q. Public
aka Wes

...

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...

I haven't paid much attention to the actual health care bill but I probably know as much about it as any here.

I can say that the atrocious amount paid for my monthly health insurance meets or exceeds the amount of federal with-holding out of my check, a shocking ratio.

Now I will maintain that I earn this "benefit" because I, and my actual boat-rower worker kind, earn every nickel that my company makes, including pay for the management guys calling cadence, freeloading stockholders riding in the boat and government guy sitting in the back regulating us all. We earn it by doing 100 percent of the rowing that moves the packed rowboat.

With the real and only creation of wealth firmly established, we can concentrate on the ratio I first mentioned up above.

My health insurance, therefore healthcare, costs as much as is needed to run the entire rest of the country. Either running a country is an incredible bargain or healthcare is way, way overpriced.

Which leads me to wonder where all the health money is going. I wonder if some of it is being used to buy the pricy abysmal lying ads on TV that tout, it is better to leave things the way they are? In that case I'm being tricked into paying for my own rectal assault.

I can't help but think that if I paid just a little more, I could have vaseline. I bet they get free vaseline in Canada.

John Q. Public
aka Wes

...

Good one.

A few weeks ago, I went into my doctor's office for a physical. He is really a great guy. He jokes around and is pretty laid back. I asked him if he could bring the physical in at under $500 because that is all my company will pay. He said no problem...then I joked..."with all the huge money you guys are making, I thought the double digit raise you get every year would kill that idea". I thought he was going to keel over with laughter. All the doctors in this hospital system work for the hospital. There are no private practices. He showed me a letter he had just received the day before asking for a 9% cut in salary. He said the rest of the staff was soon to get theirs. So..I asked..my health insurance has increase by double digits for close to 10 years now...where is all the money going? He said he had no clue. The stories..at least in Ohio...about malpractice suits are full of bs. He did tell me to watch the bonuses the hospital execs get. They seem to increase yearly by huge amounts.

After that, we moved on and he did use vaseline. As least he has a bit of sympathy for the average guy...LOL

[Excaliber]

...say no future congress can repeal or change the bill.

Actually that is fairly common wording, but it is NOT bullet proof. For instance, Bush used that verbage as it related to the missle shield to be installed in Poland (or where ever). Obama quickly changed it anyway!
Not making a case for or against the missles, for or against Bush or Obama. Just pointing out that verbage doesn't gaurantee a bill will forever stand.

...my health insurance has increase by double digits for close to 10 years now...where is all the money going?

Rumor has it the Heath Insurance companies are making HUGE profits and those profits are growing. Perhaps that is where the money is going? Getting to the bottom of HUGE profits, yea or nea, might be like trying to nail jello to the wall. But there could be some truth in it.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Actually that is fairly common wording, but it is NOT bullet proof. For instance, Bush used that verbage as it related to the missle shield to be installed in Poland (or where ever). Obama quickly changed it anyway!
Not making a case for or against the missles, for or against Bush or Obama. Just pointing out that verbage doesn't gaurantee a bill will forever stand.


Rumor has it the Heath Insurance companies are making HUGE profits and those profits are growing. Perhaps that is where the money is going? Getting to the bottom of HUGE profits, yea or nea, might be like trying to nail jello to the wall. But there could be some truth in it.

FACT, not rumor has it that insurance companies profits, amounts and percentages, are completely controlled by politicians just like those in DC. Except they hold state offices and haven't learned enough corruption to run for federal office yet.

GOOGLE your State Insurance Commissioner or State Insurance Regulatory Agency and learn that Insurance companies are regulated closer than Atomic Energy companies.
Reject pre-existing conditions? Politicians approved that!
Cancel policy for non disclosure of a condition [1st 2 years of policy only] Politicians approved that!
Raise your rates? Politicians approved that!
Make a certain profit margin? Politicians approved that!
Invest their profits in certain instruments? Politicians approved that!
And on and on. The people that caused the insurance problems are now claiming to be the one to fix them. It would be funny if it were not so very wrong.
Ernie, please do not cite your own invented rumors when there are very hard facts available to the contrary. I know its a ingrained liberal trait very hard to resist, but try!

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Rumor has it the Heath Insurance companies are making HUGE profits and those profits are growing. Perhaps that is where the money is going? Getting to the bottom of HUGE profits, yea or nea, might be like trying to nail jello to the wall. But there could be some truth in it.

And that's all it is, rumor. It fits the libs agenda. Demonization. The actual profit figures are 2.2 percent. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091025/D9BI4D6O1.html

John O

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

SPO1715, if you don't believe the estimate it is likely you don't understand how the calculations were made. A more reasonable approach would be to question the math than to dismiss the calculations.

I know what the CBO has calculated, but they only calculate what they are given. The fact is taxes are being collected 4 years in advance of benefits being delivered, as well as counting on medicare cuts. Most politicians are saying that cuts in medicare are not realistic, so those savings are not going to happen.

On top of all this what has the government ever done within budget? What were the estimates when medicare began? what has the actual cost been? I am retired from the government and my wife still works for the government. The difference between private sector and government is the private sector actually has incentive to reduce cost, while the government does not.

[Excaliber]

jolsen42, Calvin Woodward article is quite rambling and unfocused. Using numbers from that same article it could be said Insurance companies make about 6% profit. So which is it, 2% or 6%? Here's a hammer, here's the jello, now nail something down.

In addition, from the same article, Health Insurers are #35 on Forbes list for "profits", a decent showing! Drugs, medical products and services are in the top ten. No question all these groups are tied at the hip!

Woodward is a KNOWN Obama basher, he has been known before to stretch the facts to support his position. One example: He claims the debt Obama took over from the Bush era was "really Obama's" debt to begin with. It wasn't Bush's fault! Yeah right, he goes on and uses some twisted logic to make his case. Kind of like he is doing right now with the Health Insurer groups.

Like I said, "Rumor has it", I don't know how the insurance guys are doing, but I won't be looking to Woodward to find out!

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...

I haven't paid much attention to the actual health care bill but I probably know as much about it as any here.

I can say that the atrocious amount paid for my monthly health insurance meets or exceeds the amount of federal with-holding out of my check, a shocking ratio.

Now I will maintain that I earn this "benefit" because I, and my actual boat-rower worker kind, earn every nickel that my company makes, including pay for the management guys calling cadence, freeloading stockholders riding in the boat and government guy sitting in the back regulating us all. We earn it by doing 100 percent of the rowing that moves the packed rowboat.

With the real and only creation of wealth firmly established, we can concentrate on the ratio I first mentioned up above.

My health insurance, therefore healthcare, costs as much as is needed to run the entire rest of the country. Either running a country is an incredible bargain or healthcare is way, way overpriced.

Which leads me to wonder where all the health money is going. I wonder if some of it is being used to buy the pricy abysmal lying ads on TV that tout, it is better to leave things the way they are? In that case I'm being tricked into paying for my own rectal assault.

I can't help but think that if I paid just a little more, I could have vaseline. I bet they get free vaseline in Canada.

John Q. Public
aka Wes

...

Its obvious you work for the railroad because you have a "ONE TRACK MIND"



Free loading stock holders?Take them away and what do you have?Here is what you have NO BOAT to row. You should be thankful for them not demonize them. Many of them are just average people that are trying to build a nest egg for retirement.
Government has proven time and again it can't compete with the efficiency of private enterprise i.e. USPS losing big money and Fed Ex and UPS in the black.

[bomelia]

Wes, I have to agree with Razor on this. Investors are NOT freeloaders. Without them, companies cannot expand or invest in new technologies (well, not very fast). It all depends on the profit margins. Companies do not allow investors or stockholders in just so they will have one more place to spend profits. That's a dumb concept (one btw, many share).

Stockholders are investors. Investors provide risk capital for the company to expand with. As the company grows, so does your investment (401k, profit sharing, etc.) grow. Your having a dim view of stockholders will not negatively effect the company you work for, unless of course, you are high up in the command chain.

Mike

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

jolsen42, Calvin Woodward article is quite rambling and unfocused. Using numbers from that same article it could be said Insurance companies make about 6% profit. So which is it, 2% or 6%? Here's a hammer, here's the jello, now nail something down.

In addition, from the same article, Health Insurers are #35 on Forbes list for "profits", a decent showing! Drugs, medical products and services are in the top ten. No question all these groups are tied at the hip!

Woodward is a KNOWN Obama basher, he has been known before to stretch the facts to support his position. One example: He claims the debt Obama took over from the Bush era was "really Obama's" debt to begin with. It wasn't Bush's fault! Yeah right, he goes on and uses some twisted logic to make his case. Kind of like he is doing right now with the Health Insurer groups.

I didn't find it rambling at all. What he said was "Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That's anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.

Profits barely exceeded 2 percent of revenues in the latest annual measure."

Rambling?, it seems rather straight forward to me.
You say that Woodward is an Obama basher. A KNOWN Obama basher. Known by whom? Because he points out what a Charlatan Obama is. This must be what you were referencing.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blu...ct-check-obama

Where is it incorrect?

John O

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by RAZOR

Its obvious you work for the railroad because you have a "ONE TRACK MIND"



Free loading stock holders?Take them away and what do you have?Here is what you have NO BOAT to row. You should be thankful for them not demonize them. Many of them are just average people that are trying to build a nest egg for retirement.
Government has proven time and again it can't compete with the efficiency of private enterprise i.e. USPS losing big money and Fed Ex and UPS in the black.

...

Well, I have to admit I kind of like and admire Warren Buffett. But he would probably be the first admit that things are currently skewed in the favor of stockholders vs the public. If he gets 10% return a year he will have all his money back in ten years. But it may not be that good during this recovery.

I think the USPS really started to lose money when privatised Fed Ex and UPS took all the gravy freight. Almost like it was planned, you think?

Wes

Wes, I have to agree with Razor on this. Investors are NOT freeloaders. Without them, companies cannot expand or invest in new technologies (well, not very fast). It all depends on the profit margins. Companies do not allow investors or stockholders in just so they will have one more place to spend profits. That's a dumb concept (one btw, many share).

Stockholders are investors. Investors provide risk capital for the company to expand with. As the company grows, so does your investment (401k, profit sharing, etc.) grow. Your having a dim view of stockholders will not negatively effect the company you work for, unless of course, you are high up in the command chain.

Mike

That was the way it started. Business does not have to be incorporated and can even be a co-operative, and investment money mysteriously is still there. Corporations have grown to a vehicle for being completely uninvolved, contributing nothing that wasn't already there, and taking a huge profit off the top of the folks that provide work. I wish it was as cheap as other welfare.

We need to re-write corporate law. There will be the usual moans of pain.

Rats. I hear an oar calling. No, it was the phone looking for a beast of burden. Sigh. Later.

Wes

...

[Excaliber]

I bet those investors bought the boat,,, and the oars.

The poor health insurance profits are "anemic"? There in 35th place on the Fortune 500 for profits, I would hardly call that "anemic". Even compared to the other 34! Their colleages, are in the top 10, NO QUESTION those colleages play ball with the insurance industry or they don't get paid. Insurance is playing "hide the monkey" when it comes to profits.

Woodward credibility:
Well I wasn't referencing your latest link but it sure illustrates the point! It's PURE PARTISAN BS to suggest that after EIGHT years of the last Administration some how Obama is responsible for the massive deficit that he inherited with the office of POTUS. Here's what a CEO, Leader and POTUS all have in common. They take responsibility for the bottom line. Point fingers any which direction you want, when the smoke clears, BUSH left the USA with a massive debt. With the country on the brink of economic disaster. "Obama did it"? HAAAA!!!! Now thats funny.

[jolsen42]

Ex, don't let the facts or the truth get in your way. I didn't say he did it and neither did Woodward. He contributed to it as a Senator along with the other Dems in Congress the previous two years". Congress controls the purse strings, not the President". When President Bush left office the deficit was $500 + billion. The O Meister has quadruppled it and it is rising.
If your precious health care bill goes thru, forget about it. It's estimated that to pay off the deficit it will take 145 years. But don't let that bother you. The onus is on our grandkids and great grandkids and beyond.

John O