Its over, the Dems win

[Excaliber]

Asked about the huge deficit coming into office:

“That wasn't me,” President Barack Obama...

Woodwards statement:

It actually was him...

The facts are pretty clear.

[Tom Kirkham]

More problems with healthcare and abortion...or maybe Stupak (D, MI) is waiting for his payoff...

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/58921

[Tom Kirkham]

Seems like NY (state and city) are not very happy either...

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.co...d-for-our.html

[Excaliber]

For many people the abortion issue is driven by deeply held spiritual beliefs. There is little or nothing that can compare to the power of one's "absolute" belief in some aspect of their religion. Many would rather die than compromise their belief(s). These folks cannot be bought and cannot be pressured to change. This abortion issue may the single most difficult issue to work out for a compromise.

I have my doubts that the Dem's can do it, the fat lady may be sitting for a long while.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

A couple of comments about Canada's healthcare system, drugs, etc.

Firstly most Canadians have a relatively positive opinion about our healthcare system. The problems lie in the over crowding primarily because people go to the ER's, that do not really need professional care. I firmly believe that there should be a minimal charge for visiting a doctor or hospital. This would put dollars into the system and more importantly, it would reduce the number of unnecessary visits. We also have a problem with non-citizens coming into the country to obtain free health care that they cannot get in their own country. Our Medicare cards are being updated in an attempt to cut down on fraud.

Secondly, the drug manufacturers have nothing to do with our socialized healthcare system. These pharmaceutical companies are usually Canadian subsidiaries of US or other major drug companies. Our laws protecting name brand drugs are not exactly the same as the US laws however. Many US citizens, especially the elderly, living close to the Canadian border routinely come up here to get their perscriptions as our prices tend to be lower. This was especially true before the US dollar went in the toilet but that is another story.

Each country has it's own drug approval process. The US has the FDA and Canada has Health Canada. Our two countries work in a very similar way but there is no guarantee that a drug approved in the US will also be approved in Canada, and vice versa. That does not mean to say that drugs authorized for sale in Canada are dangerous or unsafe, they are just not (yet) authorized for sale in the US. Most dangerous drugs tend to be produced somewhere in the world and then sold over the internet by who-knows-who. These internet drug sites can indeed be selling dangerous products as they are totally uncontrolled.

Wayne

Funny Wayne, I worked in health care just south of you for years, in northern New England, and many of the Canadians that could afford it would come to the states for their healthcare... I saw it over and over again. And they weren't shy about expressing their distaste for your socialist system!

Alternatively, we had a family friend who lost a spouse due to delayed care in the UK's wonderful system.

This isn't going to be pretty...

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

My health insurance, therefore healthcare, costs as much as is needed to run the entire rest of the country.

John Q. Public
aka Wes

...

I'm struggling with your math, Wes. One more time, how did you arrive at this conclusion?

[Tom Kirkham]

Seems that the unions are not too happy either...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...orkers-relief/

[Excaliber]

I don't have much sympathy for those who oppose the "Cadillac" insurance plans. Or the Unions for that matter.

A Cadillac insurance plan for a single individual starts with an insurance plan that costs about $700 a month. Whoa! That a nice and expensive plan, I don't believe for a second the typical "middle class" person could afford that.

Average wage for a single person in the private sector is about $25,000 a year. That's about 35% of your income for health insurance.

The more money you make the less impact a percentage has on your lifestyle. For those making "just enough" to get by 35% is a HUGE hit. For those making enough to be totally comfortable, 35% is an "ouch" but they can deal with it.

[Ralphy]

Heard yesterday, Canada has such a shortage of doctors. They are now contracting US doctors for patience. They load up the bus and drive them here.

[Excaliber]

This nebuolus middle class, who ARE these people?

To be in the middle would be, let's say 50%. Those below 50% and those above 50% in wage earning are NOT "middle class". And yet, I gaurentee if you did a poll at least 80% of the people would say they are "middle class". Go figure...

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

For many people the abortion issue is driven by deeply held spiritual beliefs. There is little or nothing that can compare to the power of one's "absolute" belief in some aspect of their religion. Many would rather die than compromise their belief(s). These folks cannot be bought and cannot be pressured to change. This abortion issue may the single most difficult issue to work out for a compromise.

I have my doubts that the Dem's can do it, the fat lady may be sitting for a long while.

Compromise? IS that what a multi-billion Dollar bribe to each balky Congressperson is called today? Against abortion? Here's $300 or $400 billion for your state, does that salve your belief? What might happen is that more might balk to get in on the vig.

[Excaliber]

My point is: If someone with the power to stop this based on his/her personal values as it concerns abortion, I'm not convinced ANY amount of money will change that position. Now those individuals are few, maybe in this abortion debate there are NONE. But this is one example, an absolute religious belief, where money will not do the trick.

It is disgusting the way that votes are being bought! Not unprecedented, it's happened countless times in the past, doesn't make it any more acceptable today than it was before.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

My point is: If someone with the power to stop this based on his/her personal values as it concerns abortion, I'm not convinced ANY amount of money will change that position. Now those individuals are few, maybe in this abortion debate there are NONE. But this is one example, an absolute religious belief, where money will not do the trick.

It is disgusting the way that votes are being bought! Not unprecedented, it's happened countless times in the past, doesn't make it any more acceptable today than it was before.

Money worked fine with Nelson. Where'd you get the idea that anybody in DC has principles or beliefs. Re-election is their only religion. Red and Blue.

If any of them were listening to truth, principles or the people themselves, this health care INSURANCE bill would have been canned months ago.

[Excaliber]

The abortion issue, by itself, is enough to kill the bill. BECAUSE there is very little room to compromise in this area. If they don't compromise, someone will not vote, they will fall short of the 60 needed. If they do compromise, someone will not vote.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the whole thing blow up and fail to pass.

[Jamo]

It'll get past the Senate.

The real fight will be in conference with the House.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Jamo

It'll get past the Senate.

The real fight will be in conference with the House.

I agree, and if it does get through the house I think it will end up court over constitutional issues.

BTW, I hope the American people now see there is no such thing as a "moderate" democrat. If any were moderate they would not have voted for a bill that the vast majority of the American people oppose.

[Excaliber]

Well it's a good thing were not a "majority rule" society.

I hope the American people now see there is no such thing as a "moderate" right winger, just look at this bogus statement as an example:

...bill that the vast majority of the American people oppose.

It will never make it to court to face a constitutional challenge. If it does, it will loose. Congress has the right to regulate commerce, as simple as that.

[bomelia]

Ernie, I just do not get it. Are you for or against this bill?

Mike

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Well it's a good thing were not a "majority rule" society.

I hope the American people now see there is no such thing as a "moderate" right winger, just look at this bogus statement as an example:

.bill that the vast majority of the American people oppose.

It will never make it to court to face a constitutional challenge. If it does, it will loose. Congress has the right to regulate commerce, as simple as that.

Depends on what you see as vast or half vast.

Rasmussen
41% for, 55% against

A Quinnipiac University poll released Dec. 22 found a wide margin of disapproval, with 53 percent of respondents opposed to healthcare overhaul and 36 percent in favor.

[Excaliber]

...vast or half vast

Now that was good for a chuckle.

I could site a poll that shows 52% instead of 55. But then again, no one is up for election in the next month or two so the poll's don't mean squat. When we get within weeks of an election, get back to me with the poll numbers.

Vast, as in, the vast expanse of space. Like: measureless, boundless, gigantic, colossal, stupendous. Eh, 50 some percent is only 'half v-ast'.

Oh I'm FOR the bill Mike, but I'm also a realist. It's not perfect, the numbers may or may not be right on the dollars, time will tell. Cost/benefit analysis leaves me supporting it, but not "that strongly". There's a good chance it could fail the final, final vote, if so, I won't loose any sleep over it. I do think it will pass muster on the legal issues, not because I support the bill or not, just because I THINK it is real close to almost being "legal". Close enough I think it will squeak by the challenges.

Congressional Law is a fascinating subject, I'm not well versed in it but I like to hear a good discussion on the topic. In fact, I'd like to hear JAMO'S learned opinion on the legal issue of this bill. Counselor??