Dear Mr. President from Rush Limbaugh

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Black Mamba

Yes thank god I too am a union man. It's just too bad all the greedy F**k CEO's are sending our union jobs overseas (outsourcing is the sugar coated term) where they can employ people 168 hours a week for 10 cents an hour. That is why back in the early '90's I started avoiding buying items made and China and still go out of my way to do so. I would rather pay 20% more on a product if I know it's made here in the states or Europe... how's bout you?

Why don;t you union guys put your brains to some good use, band together, start up some employee-union owned corporations and run it appropriately. Just think, you could run the private-CEO companies out of business. Why didn;t you jump on the chance to buy out GM or Mopar, then you could have kicked out the CEO's, and made the companies very profitable for a change, and give yourselves all the benefits that you think are appropriate?

[Ronbo]

Simple math really, GM produces 6 million vehicles a year. Average sticker is say $20k.

Let's say the CEO's getting $60 mil a year, that's $10 a car...

Yep, gotta be the CEO's saliary that's killing these auto makers, not the billions going to the unions. GM probably spends more on toilet paper each year than the CEO's pay.

But that's alright keep your head in the sand, Kia's up to bat next in the gang rape.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Cute, Wes.

...but a mere trickle compared to the effects of union entitlement socialism. Shocking to see a few making millions each...the stuff of glorious soundbites to stir the masses. Nothing like the drag of billions of dollars wasted on union-controlled benefit trusts, over-staffing and dead weight labor rolls.

It's the same reason our government costs so much to operate.

Last week, for the first time, unionized public employees outnumbered the private sector.

The "cute" wears off quick, even as it points out greed isn't proprietary.

The "mere trickle" seems to be doing pretty well, as in more like Trickle Down - Hemorrhage Up. Think you're right, the CEO salary Millions isn't much compared to the Trillions that just flushed their way. But it's just the tip of the iceberg. Stocks, hidden from view, do the most damage. Just like a casino, the money is never lost; somebody else wins (won) it.

If the image shows up:

stubborn liberal picture

More at Net worth and financial wealth distribution in the U.S. in 2007

Entitlements? For the guys that do all the work and create all the wealth? I'm shocked and appalled. Who do they think they are??

Not much has changed in the last 5000 years, but there is always hope.
Golden Rule: Those with the gold make the rules to make the gold.
Must be a new Darwin thing. Paper has become mightier than the sword and the meek get ruled....

Wes

...

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why don;t you union guys put your brains to some good use, band together, start up some employee-union owned corporations and run it appropriately. Just think, you could run the private-CEO companies out of business. Why didn;t you jump on the chance to buy out GM or Mopar, then you could have kicked out the CEO's, and made the companies very profitable for a change, and give yourselves all the benefits that you think are appropriate?

Well, Anthony. Thats basically what we been up to. Kicked a few bums out.
The hand-wringing is almost unbearable to watch.

And McCarthyists are coming out of the woodwork.

Cause, you know, when workers own their own business, that's Socialism.

Wes

...

[Jamo]

Wes, we respect your right to live the rest of your days with union blood running through your veins as it systematically socializes mental perceptions.

We're trying save the next generation...you know, the ones who have rejected unionization overwhemingly because they don't see the value.

Pretty bad when you're afraid of the secret ballot election process (The Soviet General Assembly didn't like it either), but I digress.

[RAZOR]

Wes do you think the union fat cats care anything about the working man? They are much worse than the CEO's because they truly are the bloodsuckers that live off the labors, with their only concern being for themselves. At least the CEO's want the company to make a profit so their can be jobs for the average Joe.
And where do you get the idea that the working man creates all the wealth, thats laughable, if it wasn't so pathetic a statement. Business, big and small create the wealth, and gives opportunity for the rest of us to make a living. I got to tell you Karl would be proud of you.
I belonged to the United Steelworkers union long ago when Ohio still had numerous Steel mills that employed thousands of men and women, who made very good money and great benefits. The guys that had 20 years in were able to take 13 weeks of vacation. If we were laid off we received 95% of our normal income, both are ridiculous and the companies were stupid to capitulate to the union demands.
The mills are mostly silent today and in large part due to the Unions. My first day working at the mill I was told several times by the other workers to slow done and not do so much, the foreman called me into the office and was so surprised that I had a work ethic he told me to take a break. Many time I would witness men breaking equipment so they didn't have to work, or so they could have an early quit. Not all the workers were indolent, lazy sloths but far too many were. They were over payed and unproductive, it eventually will catch up, now those jobs don't exist around here.They killed the goose that laid the golden egg. In the beginning the Unions help make the work place safer but they turned into greedy, power grabbing crooks. The CEO's have their problems but they are petty to those of the Union fat cats.

[Wes Tausend]

...

Finally free again. The nearly useless, lazy stockholders have been working me to the bone. But they gotta eat too, I guess. Eat well, at that, with over half the wealth and gaining. America's gone from where hard work made most of the money, to where money makes most of the money. Wonder how long that will last?

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes, we respect your right to live the rest of your days with union blood running through your veins as it systematically socializes mental perceptions.
Thanks, Jamo, from the bottom of my idealist heart. Don't ever give up on the slim chance that I am wrong, and the world truly functions better Darwinist, dog-eat-dog, survival only of the fittest.

We're trying save the next generation...you know, the ones who have rejected unionization overwhemingly because they don't see the value.
Us too. All that is necessary for the triumph of total corporate solidarity is that good kids do nothing.

Pretty bad when you're afraid of the secret ballot election process (The Soviet General Assembly didn't like it either), but I digress.
Guess it works both ways. Everytime we announce planned elections, we run into mysterious obstacles and serious intimidation, almost like the thwarts from the Soviet General Assembly stories.

Cardcheck. Nice try on our part. Stockholders(bourgeoisie)=1:Proletariat=0. Figures, huh?

Wes

...

[Wes Tausend]

...

It's nice to hear from another guy who isn't afraid of work. I can see that you have a good work ethic and I admire that and believe in it too. Guys like us end up doing all the rowing while some brothers chronically let the water move the oars for them. We also carry one, or more, management guy(s) at the tiller calling cadence, one unwed mother and off-spring, six fat stockholders that own the boat and one skinny government guy in the back to regulate it all. Wealth is created only when the boat moves, that is, when you and I sweat and row.

Originally Posted by RAZOR

Wes do you think the union fat cats care anything about the working man? They are much worse than the CEO's because they truly are the bloodsuckers that live off the labors, with their only concern being for themselves.
I've known some pretty good local union officers and some pretty bad national officers, some of them union. Maybe that saying, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", is right on. I think that saying, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", is right on too. "Separate the wheat from the chaff", is another good one.

At least the CEO's want the company to make a profit so their can be jobs for the average Joe.
I just never thought of them as being so altruistic. I know when I formed my own construction business, years and years ago, I didn't do it for the welfare of workers. I did it for the money. I saw a demand that needed to be filled, and being the opportunist that I am, I hired 12 guys to help out with labor. I gave them $6/hr starting and hoped I could make a buck an hour off each, even if I didn't help row. Then I would make $12/hour, twice what they were making, just for calling cadence and steering the boat. Furthermore, I thought that the workers would want to buy stuff with their $6 and create a new demand for some other shrewd opportunist to fill, in a healthy free enterprise system.

From that, I formed the opinion that demand, and demand alone, creates jobs and opportunity. But I could be wrong. If it is not demand, but kindness, I think GM should kindly hire a bunch of extra American workers right now because America really needs the work ...don't you?

And where do you get the idea that the working man creates all the wealth, thats laughable, if it wasn't so pathetic a statement.
Don't be so silly.
On the contrary where did you get the idea that actual work doesn't create the wealth ...a Chamber of Commerce ad? Sorry, Karl liked people that would adopt values from self-appointed authority without logical question.

Every speck of gold, every diamond, every carrot did not become wealth until somebody physically dug it from the ground. All the cadence calling, all the investment capital, all the government regulation, all the trading items back and forth, are not worth a hoot without a shovel and shoveler. But that is where we are headed as the shovels go overseas.

You will find that without labor the boat won't move and no wealth is created. Without management, the rowing won't be as efficient. Now that doesn't mean that in a boat with everybody calling cadence, that one management guy can't quit calling, sit down and write on paper, the approximate distance the boat should move according to cadence. He could call the paper a financial statement of wealth and they would all get rich. Just from management alone. Don't need no stinkin' labor. Do ya think?

Business, big and small create the wealth, and gives opportunity for the rest of us to make a living. I got to tell you Karl would be proud of you.
Tsk, tsk, tsk. See above.

I belonged to the United Steelworkers union long ago when Ohio still had numerous Steel mills that employed thousands of men and women, who made very good money and great benefits. The guys that had 20 years in were able to take 13 weeks of vacation. If we were laid off we received 95% of our normal income, both are ridiculous and the companies were stupid to capitulate to the union demands.
The mills are mostly silent today and in large part due to the Unions. My first day working at the mill I was told several times by the other workers to slow done and not do so much, the foreman called me into the office and was so surprised that I had a work ethic he told me to take a break. Many time I would witness men breaking equipment so they didn't have to work, or so they could have an early quit. Not all the workers were indolent, lazy sloths but far too many were. They were over payed and unproductive, it eventually will catch up, now those jobs don't exist around here.They killed the goose that laid the golden egg. In the beginning the Unions help make the work place safer but they turned into greedy, power grabbing crooks. The CEO's have their problems but they are petty to those of the Union fat cats.
I hope you turned all the unscrupulous graft down in a spirit of honesty. You are right, unions and workers aren't perfect. See Freds union meeting video. Neither are CEOs, corporate boards or stockholders. The problem of greed is the same everywhere, IMO. I do not see less petty or better "grades" of it. With appointed lobbyists, we've gone from runaway unionism to runaway corporatism and a lot of fal$e propoganda to make folks believe it's not true. They are both unions on opposite sides of the fence, not too consumer oriented, by the way. Figure it out.

Wes

...

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...

Finally free again. The nearly useless, lazy stockholders have been working me to the bone. But they gotta eat too, I guess. Eat well, at that, with over half the wealth and gaining. America's gone from where hard work made most of the money, to where money makes most of the money. Wonder how long that will last?



Wes

...

Exactly WHEN was it that hard work made most of the money? It wasn't in the last 500 years.

Money has made the most money since money was invented.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Exactly WHEN was it that hard work made most of the money? It wasn't in the last 500 years.

Money has made the most money since money was invented.

Might have me there, Dan. Are you saying printed money and wealth aren't the same thing?

I kinda thought hard work created all the wealth, leastways up to now.

Wes

...

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Might have me there, Dan. Are you saying printed money and wealth aren't the same thing?

I kinda thought hard work created all the wealth, leastways up to now.

Wes

...

Pick anybody and you can make the same case as for labor.

Salesman, nothing gets made by labor or any money made until a salesman sells it.

Bookkeepers, no money is made until they total it up.

Advertisers, no money is made until they tell people about the product.

Designers, no money is made until they design a desirable product.

On and on, everybody has a claim, including the CEO's.

You could also make a very strong case that labor is the most expensive and most easily replaced cog in the marketing wheel.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Pick anybody and you can make the same case as for labor.

Salesman, nothing gets made by labor or any money made until a salesman sells it.

Bookkeepers, no money is made until they total it up.

Advertisers, no money is made until they tell people about the product.

Designers, no money is made until they design a desirable product.

On and on, everybody has a claim, including the CEO's.

You could also make a very strong case that labor is the most expensive and most easily replaced cog in the marketing wheel.

Dan,

Pick anybody and you can make the same case as for labor?
Not in a basic sense. I'm glad you are thinking about it anyway.

Farmer plants, raises and digs up a carrot in an act of labor. Sells it at the market, no additional salesman, bookkeeper, advertiser, designer or CEO. Farmer buys bacon and goes home, the money, the wealth, is made and spent by one.

You can only replace the farmer with another farmer, albeit maybe a cheaper farmer in a sort of intimidated reverse bidding of the working class. All these other people are middlemen and cause the price of carrots to go up by trading the original wealth back and forth or selling a slice. A lot of people live off one original carrot.

You forgot stockholders. What do they add besides chronic burden and the first carrot seed?

OK. You noticed I said no outside designer. Might have to give the almighty some credit on carrot design, but that's it.

I hear an oar already calling again. Dang.

Wes

...

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Dan,

Pick anybody and you can make the same case as for labor?
Not in a basic sense. I'm glad you are thinking about it anyway.

Farmer plants, raises and digs up a carrot in an act of labor. Sells it at the market, no additional salesman, bookkeeper, advertiser, designer or CEO. Farmer buys bacon and goes home, the money, the wealth, is made and spent by one.

You can only replace the farmer with another farmer, albeit maybe a cheaper farmer in a sort of intimidated reverse bidding of the working class. All these other people are middlemen and cause the price of carrots to go up by trading the original wealth back and forth or selling a slice. A lot of people live off one original carrot.

You forgot stockholders. What do they add besides chronic burden and the first carrot seed?

OK. You noticed I said no outside designer. Might have to give the almighty some credit on carrot design, but that's it.

I hear an oar already calling again. Dang.

Wes

...

Sorry but the farmer is the CEO of an independent business. He is Management! Not a member of labor. But if the carrots are doing well, he might be looking to hire some labor.

Stockholder? Provide financing for the business.

[Jamo]

Wes...what the hell kind of farming are you talking about?

As Dan said, the farmer (even the smallest one) is the CEO of an operation that:

...must buy seed, transplants or grafts from someone, which means companies like Monsanto or Dow and everything involved with their seed products have to compete for the business, or nurseries who grow and sell live transplants or the farm labor contractors who cut wood and utlize their skills in making successful grafts.

...must rely on transportation providers to bring them their raw materials, from the growing stock noted above to the fuel needed to operate farm machinery to packaging materials to prepare the farmer's products to market...and transportation to get the farm products to market, farmers' markets notwithstanding (small percentages).

...must rely on various labor sources to grow and cultivate and harvest the product...tractor drivers, irrigators, thin/hoe and/or contractors with the crews and equipment to harvest and pack the farm products.

...must rely on sales staff or outside brokers to sell the farm product.

...must rely on banking institutions to loan the monies needed to even plant the crops, let alone for maintaining or replacing farm equipment.

...must rely on administrative staff or outside services to run the payrolls, invoice for the products, keep track of safety and human resource trainings, etc.

In other words, just what damn planet are you talking about where farmers do everything for themselves without affecting other businesses or relying on investments in order to farm?

Before one damn seed is stuck in the ground...you need money. Hell, you can't even buy sh!t (aka manure) without money.

Yes, labor is an essential component, but it is simply one link in the chain.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Sorry but the farmer is the CEO of an independent business. He is Management! Not a member of labor. But if the carrots are doing well, he might be looking to hire some labor.

Stockholder? Provide financing for the business.

An idea is easy to convey. A concept is not.

Yes, the simple, single farmer is everything, CEO (management), salesman, bookkeeper, advertiser, designer (breed selection). In short, the farmer represents all labor and nothing of wealth exists without it. He is also the sole proprietor, aka stockholder. A working stockholder, unlike most in the Wallstreet shellgame.

(Outside) Stockholder ... Provide financing for the business?

OK. They provide a carrot seed one time. Once they get their seed money back twofold (2 seeds), why do we have to keep paying them? Standing off to one side, looks more like the business, aka the labor, is providing financing for them, to me. They already have accumulated over half the wealth. Usury. As in they're freeloading, bigtime.

Wes

...

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes...what the hell kind of farming are you talking about?

As Dan said, the farmer (even the smallest one) is the CEO of an operation that:

...must buy seed, transplants or grafts from someone, which means companies like Monsanto or Dow and everything involved with their seed products have to compete for the business, or nurseries who grow and sell live transplants or the farm labor contractors who cut wood and utlize their skills in making successful grafts.

...must rely on transportation providers to bring them their raw materials, from the growing stock noted above to the fuel needed to operate farm machinery to packaging materials to prepare the farmer's products to market...and transportation to get the farm products to market, farmers' markets notwithstanding (small percentages).

...must rely on various labor sources to grow and cultivate and harvest the product...tractor drivers, irrigators, thin/hoe and/or contractors with the crews and equipment to harvest and pack the farm products.

...must rely on sales staff or outside brokers to sell the farm product.

...must rely on banking institutions to loan the monies needed to even plant the crops, let alone for maintaining or replacing farm equipment.

...must rely on administrative staff or outside services to run the payrolls, invoice for the products, keep track of safety and human resource trainings, etc.

In other words, just what damn planet are you talking about where farmers do everything for themselves without affecting other businesses or relying on investments in order to farm?

Before one damn seed is stuck in the ground...you need money. Hell, you can't even buy sh!t (aka manure) without money.

Yes, labor is an essential component, but it is simply one link in the chain.

Jamo,

Well, I was talking about basic farming roots (pardon the pun ).

You are getting more complicated and cluttering up the logical simplicity of my Reductionism here.

The idea is that one can fathom how a complicated machine works by looking at it in its simplest form and applying these basic principles to all higher layers.

Labor is an essential component, but it is simply one link in the chain.

Reduced to bare bones, the other components (all support) are not essential in the most basic sense. Without labor, there is no chain. No wealth. Ever. Only labor, and labor alone, creates wealth or the foundation for a more complicated arrangement. All live off the one carrot that labor produces. There are never more carrots that field support pulls outa their ...um, you know.

=========

Boat rowing:
Men swim by themselves. Somebody notices logs floating by and invents a boat. Another guy, 1st stockholder, provides the investment in time to build it. They now swim together out of the cold, cold water. Stockholder favors one rower to call cadence and steer. Capitalism runs amuck. Stockholder buys government guy to restrict any rowers from building competitive boats and rides for free for a lifetime.

======

Everybody picks their own berries at the community berry patch in spirit of socialism where everybody has equal opportunity. First entrepreneur privatizes the patch by simple declaration. Capitalism is born. Skims everybodies efforts by charging pickers part of picked berries thereafter. Enforces declaration by hiring govenment goon for fractional share of berries. Capitalism runs amuck. Doesn't do a lick of real work ever, and has bigger piece of the berry pie than anyone for a lifetime.

==========

I agree, nobody ever said the world was fair. Ninety-nine percent of the species that ever lived are now extinct. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there. And so the class struggle continues.

Wes

...

[Jamo]

Wes, my friend, let me first say that I have the utmost respect for you.

However, you are completely full of sh!t, which may be the only thing you can conceptually contribute to the advancement of farming.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

An idea is easy to convey. A concept is not.

Yes, the simple, single farmer is everything, CEO (management), salesman, bookkeeper, advertiser, designer (breed selection). In short, the farmer represents all labor and nothing of wealth exists without it. He is also the sole proprietor, aka stockholder. A working stockholder, unlike most in the Wallstreet shellgame.
.

Often, the sole proprietor dreams of one day expanding his business. He understands that he is only one man, and can't possibly do everything, so as his business grows, he is forced to employ other people to take over some of the tasks, or at least contract out for services that he cannot provide for himself for whatever reason. Unfortunately, one cannot always find employees that are as capable as the initial proprietor, so you have to hire other less capable people to perform some of the menial tasks. Wes, are you one of these employees?

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

. A working stockholder, unlike most in the Wallstreet shellgame.


OK. They provide a carrot seed one time. Once they get their seed money back twofold (2 seeds), why do we have to keep paying them? Standing off to one side, looks more like the business, aka the labor, is providing financing for them, to me. They already have accumulated over half the wealth. Usury. As in they're freeloading, bigtime.

Nobody forces any owner to agree to accept investment money to help his business. Some owners do, others don't. Investment money serves a purpose. Maybe you should change you occupation to that of an investor? Would you be happy? Do you think you're capable of that? Does it matter if the money was your own or someone else's?


Man, what a great thread. This is exactly what club cobra is about. Bringing all of us from different ways of life together to share our love for humanity.

Kum by ya, my lord, kum by ya, etc.

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes, my friend, let me first say that I have the utmost respect for you.

However, you are completely full of sh!t, which may be the only thing you can conceptually contribute to the advancement of farming.

That is so funny that I'm laughing so hard I'm crying.
John O

[Dan40]

Labors future:

Saw a show about Mueller's pasta. They have a factory that covers many acres. Don't remember the number but remember thinking that is really huge.

Once their pasta was made in that factory by thousands of workers. Today they turn out more pasta and more consistent products than ever before. I'm not saying that they have an outstanding product. I don't think it ever was anything but a mass market product. I don't mean it is a bad product either.

The point is, today that huge factory has ZERO workers on the floor. Not a single one. A dozen people monitor the computers, otherwise it is 100% machines. From raw materials coming in one end and boxed and packed for shipment finished products out the other, all machines.

Businesses exist to make money, they have no other purpose. They have labor only because it is necessary to make money. But labor is more expensive and causes more breakdowns than machines. Thus, whenever possible labor is replaced by machines. Because Businesses exist to make money!