Representative Republic or Democracy?

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes

Since I don't belong to a union, and therefore don't have free paid time, I can't take all the time necessary to respond to your well-written post.

As to your overtime issue, the Railway Act conspires with the Fair Labor Standards Act to put you in the situation you're in... ...I now understand the scenario you're working under...thanks for the info. BTW, you're screwed.

Your OJ/oarsmen examples are fun, but they really are a bit simplistic, aren't they. Maybe if you have OJ pointing a gun to his attorney's head to force him to be his attorney, or the oarsmen threaten a mutiny just before the worst rapids one might imagine, I could accept them as viable comparisons.

The problem is not just ...it is the cost of maintaining the benefits of the folks... ...The Warren Court and the NLRB of the late 50s and 60s did a fine job of making it nearly impossible for a strike to be defended against,... ...costs of folks that don't even work anymore. The PBGC is all but bankrupt from the defined-benefit plans, and yet Taft-Hartley trust funds run by the unions are so overfunded that they could build dozens of replicas of Las Vegas where the Teamsters could only put up a few casinos. Some trust funds even tell companies to take a month off from paying premiums, as if to rub their noses into it.

We are all paying for this... ...a megaport is being built south of TJ because our beloved Longshoremen don't want to allow our stateside ports to put in the modern equipment that the rest of the Pacific Rim operates with...because it will result in having to give up a great deal of featherbedding.
BTW...when can I take a turn at running one of them big badasses down the tracks?

Jamo,

Good reply. I'm impressed with your knowledge of labor issues.

Um, "free paid time", .... I wish.
Since it is a national pay scale, the gist is that the straightrate pay is decent for my area when I do work off the miles and I get a lot of hours (read opportunity) but the same pay is probably a little short on standards around L.A. Overtime has become so common that I note it's unusual to find employee jobs without it until recent law.
I used to be self-employed where the more square foot of house done, the more cash in pocket. Now it's miles. For me overtime isn't actually an issue. I prefer to hurry and work less than 40 when I can.

Your OJ/oarsmen examples are fun, but they really are a bit simplistic, aren't they.
I believe that the most complicated mechanical machine can be understood by breaking it down to its components. Any machine is made of other smaller machines that eventually break down to wheels, levers and inclined planes and the four basic forces. In a similar way humans also behave in simple interactions that may appear initially more complicated. The basic rules still apply and an exercise in simplification adds clarity to their understanding. IMO anyway.

The O.J. problem is that the attorney has willingly given his time before he finds out he won't be paid as promised. Perhaps O.J. first pulls the gun when counsel reaches for his (O.J.'s) wallet.
The oarsmen might indeed object to quickly giving their life cheaply in the rapids... or they might object to slowly giving their life cheaply over years. For that is what we all do. We sell our time here on earth. Nice to get a fair price for it. Life can be cheap in other countries... but not here.

...The Warren Court and the NLRB of the late 50s and 60s did a fine job of making it nearly impossible for a strike to be defended against,... ...The laws and enforcement have only recently come back to what they were supposed to be: guidelines for a fair struggle between the parties which could lead to fair agreements which make neither suffer at the hand of the other...
So unions have nearly disappeared while corporate power now exceeds that of our own government. I think the pendulum may have swung the other way a bit.
As a non-owner, most corporations won't even let me effectively vote policy like my government does... kind of like what Mike was admiring at the beginning of his thread here.

As a nation we've moved to a union-avoidance philosophy; or maybe along the lines of Bernies "terminology" (colors a view), we should call it union-busting.
Here's a long but interesting insider piece on how it's done:
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting )
Seems like the tactics could be used on an opposing political party also.

...yet Taft-Hartley trust funds run by the unions are so overfunded... ...Some trust funds even tell companies to take a month off from paying premiums, as if to rub their noses into it...
Trust funds, technically not entirely run by unions... but better overfunded than castrated like SS...
...or union-influence-free PBGC which is abused by corp after corp using it as a convenient benefits cop-out while popping back up under a new corporate name. We, the middleclass taxpayer, will be bailing PBGC out sooner or later.
Recently my insurance company (State Farm) rebated part of my excess premiums. I was shocked and appalled just like you said.

featherbedding
No doubt about it, if the workforce isn't reduced by attrition, these guys rise to protect their horn-of-plenty from technology and lower paid riff-raff.
I see them as Joe Six-pack guys trying to pay off the mortgage and college tuition. Part of a dying breed of middleclass, all protecting their turf. Not a whole lot unlike the bar association preventing a bunch of would be work-release felons from hanging out a cutrate shingle. I hear some cons are pretty talented. The courts would be (would be ?) clogged with the frivolous. But come the week-end... and suits and toolbelts come off and everybody's Joe Six-pack... brothers on wheels. On Harleys, Cobras. Well, they really are brothers. Featherbedding; always proclaimed in the interest of public safety, eh? While it may seem like comparing apples and oranges, they are both fruit seen pouring out of the horn-of-plenty are they not?

BTW...when can I take a turn at running one of them big badasses down the tracks?
This could happen. All you gotta do is get to Glendive, Montana or Mandan, North Dakota to negotiate some labor. While you're there, ask local BNSF management to ride, you being a contractor that can better do his job after touring the trenches.

Although I'm no star pupil kisser, I'm a decent fairly regarded employee and acquainted with my local company officers (well enough to greet first name basis in a hallway anyway). Request and get permission to ride with me. Try to do before it's apparent an axe is going to fall.

With luck we'll make room for you even if the conductor has to kick his sheep out early. I maybe couldn't let you run legally, depending on granted-ride/FRA status, but anything could happen out in the boonies. Anything not involving sheep, of course. I can overlook conductors and their favorite sheep but that's it.


...

[bomelia]

I think my thread has been jacked.

[Roscoe]

One would be surprised to learn that the percentage of the workforce that is still unionized is only about 12%.

While unions, dispite infiltration by Communists and da mob, might have served some purpose in the first half of the 20th century but certainly serve no purpose for the workers today.


Roscoe

[VRM]

Roscoe, I have to disagree with you.
In most cases the unions have lost their original raison d'etre, and they now suck the life out of companies and workers. However, when I was at the phone company there were two unions I had to deal with on a regular basis; the IBEW and the CWA. The pole climbers and switch techs are all IBEW, and things are really cushy for them. I used to see a lot of them sitting around playing cards. It was also IBEW guys who threw horse manure on the steps of the Providence RI building where I was running the 411 system 20 hours a day. Fortunately, I had a friend who let me go in the ATT entrance, but all the NET people had to go through the manure. I have no fondness for them.

However, the ladies who work the phones on the 411 systems are all monitored every second that they work. They can be yelled at for taking bathroom breaks that are too long. Their coffee breaks lasted exactly 13 minutes. If they don't process x number of calls per minute they would get a performance review. They also did not make much money, but the benefits were really good. Most of them were single moms or older women who needed some extra income. Most did not have any kind of education. They went on strike for almost 4 months to get 2 minutes added to their break times and to avoid the medical copay. The strike was mostly for the IBEW people, but the CWA could not cross lines if the IBEW votes to stay out. When the strike was over the IBEW guys soaked up a couple of months of overtime getting caught up on work, but the operators had none of that. A lot of them were very pissed off at their union after that for keeping them out for so long. Still, they realised that as long as you did your job properly the union would go to bat for them if they ever had a situation that called for extended sick time or something like that.

I think that their union could do better for them, but in their case it is probably better than nothing.

Personally, I would never join a union - it is too much like socialism that protects the idiots and squashes the good employees. But in a situation like the one I mention where everyone is expected to perform to exactly the same standard than there is a valid reason for one.

Steve

[Roscoe]

You cannot debate seriously with anecdotes.

However, I think we do agree in general.

Roscoe

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

However, I think we do agree in general.

Roscoe

Probably - my last paragraph sums it up for me. Based on your comments and Jamos it seems you are completely against unions. I'm only against them most of the time.

And I don't think that they destroyed GM and Ford. Design (or lack thereof) did that, but the unions have tried to get as much as they can out of the companies, even when they are having tough times. Management has done the same. Greedy buggers...

Steve

[Roscoe]

Now that I voiced my opinion I can give you an anecdote:

Back around 1980 the Ford assembly plant in Mahwah, NJ was closing due to poor quality control and costs. Of course the local paper was attacking Ford and ran a 'human interest' story regarding the plight of the 'workers'. One guy who was making 20 bucks an hour was complaining that he would have to sell his summer home.

By the way, being against unions most of the time....is that like being 'a little bit pregnant?'

Roscoe

[VRM]

Roscoe,
Yep - I have little sympathy for that guy.

And nope - there is a small percentage of times where having a union is better than not having one.
I've worked with unions from every major telephone company in the US, as well as a bunch from overseas. All except one or two have sucked in a big way.

It's more like saying that you won't get pregnant if you use a condom - it's true 98% of the time.

Steve

[Jamo]

Steve

Concerning the 411 operators...geez, they're freeking wimmin talking on the phone all day!

The vast majority of unionized workers in this country are our lovely POS public employees who are above noramal laws in terms of discipline/discharge, have medical coverage that covers everything from Viagra to sex change operations and have overlapping retirement funds...all at the expense of our taxpaying asses.

I deal with this crap every day. Here's one: Guy wants a month off (unpaid) to go to Mexico to bury his dad. It's during the busiest season, and we tell him we can let him go for two weeks (double the time required under the contract), and that he has to use two of his three weeks of vacation (same rules you would follow under FMLA or CFRA, and as provided for under the contract). He refuses to use his vacation, and has the union file a grievance and an unfair labor practice charge...argues that he is being discriminated against because of his national origin. The union pukes file both without even checking the facts or calling the employer first. Arbitration is held on the grievance first, and the arbitrator throws it out in the first ten minutes, and berates the union pukes for wasting everyone's time.

Course, the dumbasses still won't pull their unfair labor practice charge based on the very same facts even though 1) it is preempted by the grievance procedure and 2) it has no chance.

In all of this, the employer is spending time and money, and even if it wins, cannot recoupe its costs.

This is what is called the "cost of the contract"...the hidden bullsh!t costs the unions impose everyday to drive the costs of Impalas up and drive steel production to India. Unions and their fellow travelers are simply leeches on the rest of society.

Just my opinion of course.

[VRM]

Jamo,
Those wimmin talking on the phone all day have to push a button to get permission to go to the bathroom. Rather than mocking them maybe you should give them some credit for doing a job you would never want to do.

As for the rest of it - yep I agree. There was a union guy who cut one of the new (back then) fiber cables and knocked out phone service to about 120K people in Brockton, MA for about 18 hours. I spent about 4 hours checking data circuits as things were getting patched up. I have no idea what it cost the phone company, but the guy kept his job because one of the agreements in the new contract was amnesty. There were a couple of other similar instances (that I am aware of) during that same strike.

Out of all the union guys I worked with, there were about 6 that I would be willing to work with again.

I would also be happy if the phone companies gave up their assured profits given to them by regulators in lieu of actually having to compete.

Steve

[Jamo]

Calm your ass...next thing you know you'll be complaining about CNN picking on poor folks from Idaho who like to tap dance while taking a dump in an airport stall.

Remember, I'm the one who watches citizenship-challenged folks pick grapes all day in 105 temps while wondering who will fill their jobs when their social security numbers don't line up just right on the government's keno cards.

[spl310]

Originally Posted by bomelia

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292151,00.html

I read this stuff and am left with a mild sense of angst. I suppose it is happening on both sides of the aisle, but I believe more so on the Democratic side. YouTube debates, Move on debates, Daily Kos debates. What is this? Could the Presidency one day be held by a group of people?

Mike

Already happened. Here is a quote:

Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton

I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.

[VRM]

My ass is always very calm,
I just think that if you want to pick on someone you should pick on someone who deserves it.

What you do does not have any relevance on whether those ladies deserve to be belittled by you.

Anyway, no need to respond back on this (unless you really need to). I'm headed to Goodwood in the AM and I have some Jag lightweight notes to gather up.

Steve

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by VRM

My ass is always very calm,
I just think that if you want to pick on someone you should pick on someone who deserves it.

What you do does not have any relevance on whether those ladies deserve to be belittled by you.

Anyway, no need to respond back on this (unless you really need to). I'm headed to Goodwood in the AM and I have some Jag lightweight notes to gather up.

Steve

"...I feel the need..."

When humor is lost, so is civilization. Read what I last posted again and think about it next time you munch on some grapes.

BTW, there are many jobs which require the type of protocol you believe is so onerous. In agriculture, it would include folks working at a variety of stations in a packinghouse running conveyor operations, forklift strapping, etc. Same thing in food processing, widget-making, etc. where folks simply can't leave their positions without asking first. Men and women in Bowling Green (or any such other production line) can't just get up and "go." Obviously (and thankfully), air traffic controllers are expected to sit tight until relieved. I find nothing significant about the fact that the folks you feign concern for are women. It is simply the nature of the work. Nor does it matter whether they are men, women or transvestites...Title VII's been around a few years. Hell, I can't just get up and leave in the middle of a trial without asking the freeking judge. The most employee-friendly laws in the country (California's) only require rest breaks of ten minutes every two hours under each and every one of the Industrial Wage Commissions various Orders (ie., for every industry).

Further, objective standards of performance exist in every industry...unions, of course, would prefer to have everyone be able to keep and maintain their jobs regardless of how lousey their performance, which is exactly why so many unionized operations end up failing due to lower production/higher per unit costs.

Your pedestal has a broken leg.

Have fun in Goodwood...try to smile.

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by VRM

My ass is always very calm,
I just think that if you want to pick on someone you should pick on someone who deserves it.

What you do does not have any relevance on whether those ladies deserve to be belittled by you.

Anyway, no need to respond back on this (unless you really need to). I'm headed to Goodwood in the AM and I have some Jag lightweight notes to gather up.

Steve

I expect so much more from our English expat.

Mike

[Jamo]

Wes...why be impressed with my knowlege of labor issues?

I've been "busting" unions in my practice for 30 years, and I teach labor and employment law at the college level. I better damn well know WTF I'm talking about.

It is your knowlege that is impressive, despite you being utterly wrong on the issues being discussed. BTW, we've gone way beyond the tactics described in the Wikpedia article...then again, the unions haven't been asleep either. It's all a modern version of the Great Game played by Russia and Great Britain a few centuries ago.

Bomelia...yeah well, what's your point?

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

Ever run one of those big BNSF's through the KC yards hauling all of those Chinese and Korean containers? I'll wave at you next time.

Bernie

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

The West Bottoms is already "Little Mexico". They don't have to give anything to them, they already have it. Their gangs own the night, it's sort of like Cu Chi over there.

Luckily I live in another county about 35 miles south of there. I moved from Independence to the farmland as soon as I got home from the Army.