Representative Republic or Democracy?

[bomelia]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292151,00.html

I read this stuff and am left with a mild sense of angst. I suppose it is happening on both sides of the aisle, but I believe more so on the Democratic side. YouTube debates, Move on debates, Daily Kos debates. What is this? Could the Presidency one day be held by a group of people? Same for the Senate and the House?

Recently I was reminded that the right to vote is not a right at all. It is left to the states to decide who can and cannot vote. In my state, you have to show a picture ID. Used to be that only landowners could vote. I like that. Vested, informed, interested. That would really screw up the Blue states, wouldn't it? I would love to see a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner (land/house, etc).

Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so.

Mike

[Roscoe]

Debates are fine. YouTube questions from mush brained idiots? No.

Remember: Pure Democracy is a lynch mob.

We are a Republic...ah....er....well.....we started out that way.

Don't get me started,
Roscoe

[bomelia]

But our Constitution is wrapped around the concept of a representative republic. But who today understands this and all that it entails? I think I am seeing a move towards a true democracy. Ugh. I think it might be time to "re-educate" and "re-inform" those who think we live in a democracy. Its our own fault...the word "democracy" is bantered about way too often...but the savy amongst us understand that that can be changed. This is a change that must not happen. Recognize it today before it is too late. Remember Rome. (ala the Alamo)

Mike

[Roscoe]

It IS too late.......

Roscoe

[stengun]

Howdy,

[quote=bomelia
In my state, you have to show a picture ID. Used to be that only landowners could vote. I like that. Vested, informed, interested. That would really screw up the Blue states, wouldn't it? I would love to see a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner (land/house, etc).

Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so.

Mike[/QUOTE]


Based on the above statement, I guess bomelia has never heard of or read the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or the Bill of Rights. His statement goes against what our Founding Fathers started this great Country on.

Yep, several states had passed poll tax laws back in the "Old Days" but have since them been ruled unconstitutional.

Just because a person owns land does not mean they are informed and interested and vice versa. I have a distant cousin that has a dairy w/ over 300 acres and milks over 100 head of cows. He has never voted and does not have any idea who his state and US Rep are.

He is totally uninformed and uninterested, but he does own alot of land.

Bill Clinton never owned any land and was elected to two terms as the US President. He was/is very informed and very interested. It also kinda looks like Slick Willie is headed back to the White House for another 8 years.

Paul

[bomelia]

Go lurk somewhere else.

[BeanCounter]

Mike,

Take it for what it's worth considering the source. Hey, he's from Arkansas. If you notice it took him two weeks to find someone to read him the thread and then write a reply for him.

[J. T. Toad]

How long has nugnets been back?


"Based on the above statement, I guess bomelia has never heard of or read the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or the Bill of Rights. His statement goes against what our Founding Fathers started this great Country on."

This from a group of slave owners. In one statement you prove Roscoe's point. One may have read the documents, but that is far from an understanding of the ideal.

It is too late.

it is about vested interest and tax burden. when was the last time you saw a proposition on property tax relief? yet those on the government payroll do not hesitate to raise their salaries.

voter qualification?
1) English comprehension
2) Chattel
3) if your paid by government, you don't vote. (yes, I know way out there, but think of the ramifications if those who benefit the least from paying taxes were to be responsible for the payout of said taxes.... reminds me of a tea party in Boston)


ps. Mike, don't insult Rome, we are way past that point. We should know better.

The following is like reading our front page news.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/r...fallofrome.htm

There are some adherents to single factors, but more people think Rome fell because of a combination of such factors as Christianity, decadence, lead, monetary, and military problems. Even the rise of Islam is proposed by some who think the Fall of Rome happened at Constantinople in the 15th Century.

Here are some of the explanations for the Fall of Rome:

* Decay
* Financial Problems
* The Dole and Barbarians
* Economic, Military, Gradual
* Christianity
* Vandals and Religious Controversy
* Division of the Empire
* Lead
* Hoarding and Deficit

[bomelia]

Sounds vaguely familiar...

BTW, Sten's post count is coming up again... I predict he and cheese head will be blowing away as the election draws near.

Mike

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by bomelia

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292151,00.html

I read this stuff and am left with a mild sense of angst. I suppose it is happening on both sides of the aisle, but I believe more so on the Democratic side. YouTube debates, Move on debates, Daily Kos debates. What is this? Could the Presidency one day be held by a group of people? Same for the Senate and the House?

Recently I was reminded that the right to vote is not a right at all. It is left to the states to decide who can and cannot vote. In my state, you have to show a picture ID. Used to be that only landowners could vote. I like that. Vested, informed, interested. That would really screw up the Blue states, wouldn't it? I would love to see a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner (land/house, etc).

Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so.

Mike

Mike,

I recently saw a transcript of Demo candidates speaking to an organized labor gathering. I think labor does not trust Clinton regarding her coziness with corporate interests. Remember NAFTA and Bill. The world is continuously being divided into those who work and those that just ride free, many now living on huge corporate dividends counted with uncalloused hands, passed generation to generation.

Now, in all fairness, I have some minor stocks too... but my little monopoly house doesn't hold up too well to the mega-hotel Boardwalk bunch. I'm almost afraid to go around Go. Lately more than ever, I have this feeling they want it all, last man (group?) left standing. So it looks to me like, yes, a very small group will eventually run things, the result of years of strictly banding together for power. I hope the vast middle class, the working class, wins, or at least holds it's own, for your and my kids sake. That's really what America is... your and my kids, all our kids... isn't it? Aren't we all here the working class, the ones with relatively meager assets but a wealth of calluses?

I think a map showing Blue/Red overlayed with owner/non-owner would not reveal much in itself. Almost all US land is owned. In the event that the political type of owner were to somehow be distinguished, don't forget that much of America is being sold to foreign interests these days. Not blue, not red. Sad state of affairs.

Originally Posted by bomelia

"Are these two thoughts (above 2 paragraphs) related? I think so."

Mike

Guess they are related in my view. I have a fear that a small group of owners will dictate everything. If that's what you meant.

...

[J. T. Toad]

Corporate Dividends? where? please let me know, I would get on that wagon.

If you really meant corporate salaries, I couldn't agree more. But I find it tough to argue a mega million salary reform for an individual responsible for the employment of many, when mega million SPORTS mutants are met with adoration and additional endorsements.

There isn't a facet of population which doesn't bear responsibility for today's state of affairs. Except me of course

on a radical note, very little land is owned. Recent law changes in eminent domain for private (profit) (ultimately tax revenue) proves how little regard the law has for private ownership. An additional example is to not pay your property tax and see how long you own your property. When the 'public' is impacted by the individual, the public has carte blanch.

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

I've read your little class dividing diatribes before but this one really takes the cake. Let me put it in perspective. I grew up in a two room apartment above a bar in one of the worst sections of Kansas City. My Dad, a uneducated Okie farm boy who chopped cotton for a dollar a day, my Mom, my brother and sister and I lived and slept in those two rooms. My Dad was one of the original founders of the Grain Millers Union here in KC. My Mom was a steward for the machinists. My father in law was the International President of a construction union. My son is currently a union electrician. So it's safe to say I have a pretty solid union background. My mom and dad and we kids worked hard to get all three of us through college. In fact all of us have MBA's. I got mine on the GI bill when I got home by working a full time job and going to school at night. While the union guys were *****ing about working 8 hours I was working 12 to 14 hours, traveling away from home and continuing to better my skills. So the three of us now have a pretty good chunk of money. And I don't apologize one bit for what I've worked so hard for. The unions were very necessary in the first half of the last century but soon they began to abuse their power. High wages for doing substandard work that eventually put the auto, steel, and other industries into such a non-competetive position that now they're hurting for a job let alone a good paying one. I see the electricians union heads doing nothing but feathering their own nests while they let the guys doing the work suffer. They fight to keep guys who have failed drug test after drug test on the job endangering everyone who works with them. Meanwhile the good workers sit on the books or have to go to other cities to get work. 60% of the work in KC is now done by non-union companies and it's the union's fault for having the standards of trailer park trash.

Maybe you need to work a little harder instead of blaming everyone else because I see none of the problems that you cry wolf about. Nowhere in the world can a person better himself as he can in the good ole USA. Try it. You'll be surprised.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

I've read your little class dividing diatribes before but this one really takes the cake. Let me put it in perspective. I grew up in a two room apartment above a bar in one of the worst sections of Kansas City. My Dad, a uneducated Okie farm boy who chopped cotton for a dollar a day, my Mom, my brother and sister and I lived and slept in those two rooms. My Dad was one of the original founders of the Grain Millers Union here in KC. My Mom was a steward for the machinists. My father in law was the International President of a construction union. My son is currently a union electrician. So it's safe to say I have a pretty solid union background. My mom and dad and we kids worked hard to get all three of us through college. In fact all of us have MBA's. I got mine on the GI bill when I got home by working a full time job and going to school at night. While the union guys were *****ing about working 8 hours I was working 12 to 14 hours, traveling away from home and continuing to better my skills. So the three of us now have a pretty good chunk of money. And I don't apologize one bit for what I've worked so hard for. The unions were very necessary in the first half of the last century but soon they began to abuse their power. High wages for doing substandard work that eventually put the auto, steel, and other industries into such a non-competetive position that now they're hurting for a job let alone a good paying one. I see the electricians union heads doing nothing but feathering their own nests while they let the guys doing the work suffer. They fight to keep guys who have failed drug test after drug test on the job endangering everyone who works with them. Meanwhile the good workers sit on the books or have to go to other cities to get work. 60% of the work in KC is now done by non-union companies and it's the union's fault for having the standards of trailer park trash.

Maybe you need to work a little harder instead of blaming everyone else because I see none of the problems that you cry wolf about. Nowhere in the world can a person better himself as he can in the good ole USA. Try it. You'll be surprised.

Bernie,

I just got back from work and now I have three days off, the week-end no less.
I'm leaving to visit my son in Minneapolis whom I have time to see a couple times a year.

This was a short week with only 65 hours and 10 minutes. The norm is about 72 hours if we get our days off and about 108 hours if we don't. Before you think that I got a lot of overtime $, I should mention, no, the pay structure is such that there is rarely overtime, 99.9% of it being straight-time. A lot of things have changed since the hayday of union power. I didn't jump on the union bandwagon until 1990.
A half sunk boat by then.

I'm sure your folks worked hard even though they were union... and most (but not all) of us do today. The wolf is back at our middleclass door. Seems like whoever has power abuses it. I'd like to ask you to look very carefully at what corporate America is currently doing to increase the profit margin, including NAFTA type policies. And ask yourself if it's all good for America; good for your grandchildren. You can blame whoever you like for forcing America into this position, I don't know if fault matters anymore. Don't forget your roots and how your folks could eventually afford to help. Hard work often means very little without a little organizational clout. It's always been that way.

Then I'd like to ask you to reconsider your position on what we need to do about it. I'm all for a little political moderation. Somewhere out there is a middle ground where everyone in the USA stays healthy. America, land of the free... and fair.

Thanks for your support, whatever it may be.


...

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

A profitable corporation means jobs. An unprofitable corporation means layoffs. I don't see you employing thousands of people. I don't see you sharing the loss when your company doesn't make any money. It's in your best interests if a corporation stays healthy and employs people. It seems that unions today no longer understand that. They strangled the corporations until they finally disappeared (ie the steel industry). Sure there are some abuses.....whatever happened to the usury laws so that these payday loan places can't charge 400% interest (of course what idiot would go there but obviously some do). I also don't agree with the mega-millions that some CEO's are receiving now, but then I don't agree with what athletes make either. But once again I reiterate that no matter what, the USA is the best place in the world for opportunity regardless of race or class.

Of course if you really like taxes and cradle to grave breast feeding then Sweden is the ideal place.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

A profitable corporation means jobs. An unprofitable corporation means layoffs. I don't see you employing thousands of people. I don't see you sharing the loss when your company doesn't make any money. It's in your best interests if a corporation stays healthy and employs people. It seems that unions today no longer understand that. They strangled the corporations until they finally disappeared (ie the steel industry). Sure there are some abuses.....whatever happened to the usury laws so that these payday loan places can't charge 400% interest (of course what idiot would go there but obviously some do). I also don't agree with the mega-millions that some CEO's are receiving now, but then I don't agree with what athletes make either. But once again I reiterate that no matter what, the USA is the best place in the world for opportunity regardless of race or class.

Of course if you really like taxes and cradle to grave breast feeding then Sweden is the ideal place.

Bernie,

I think we're not so far apart here. I "get it" in spite of what you may suppose.

A profitable corporation means jobs. An unprofitable corporation means layoffs. I don't see you employing thousands of people.
Very true, Bernie. I suppose no one single person normally employs 1000's but most of us do "assist" in that we have some stock. Unfortunately we are often funding jobs in China lately due to some foolhardy longterm thinking. Maybe they'll finally be able buy our goods when our (yours and my) wages match theirs. This is my main point in referencing middle working-class erosion. Us companies can pay as well as European or Japanese and still compete, as long as all abide by the same limitations on even ground. We can simply avoid or tax importing goods produced by slave-wages.

I don't see you sharing the loss when your company doesn't make any money. It's in your best interests if a corporation stays healthy and employs people.
Actually, I now receive a bonus, through profit sharing, when my company makes money. Although I gave up some wage increase, I like the trade-off and would like to see the CEO on down tied to the same reasonable percentage of wage. Of course I stand to lose money when the economy takes a dump, but oh well, I've been to the self-employment mountain before. Not sure about all my union cohorts.

It seems that unions today no longer understand that. They strangled the corporations until they finally disappeared (ie the steel industry).
I think they understand now for the most part. On my personal behalf, I've both had a dozen employees as a self-proprietor and also worked in low end corporate management. My point, here and now, is that the scale has finally tipped too far the other way. I can see from my fence-post that whoever has the power seems to abuse it and we could use a little balance in favor of the US middleclass again. The investors didn't get strangled so much as they moved or bought offshore towards easier profits. I'd like to remove a little of the "easy". How will we fight the next war without industry on our own soil? Imported bullets, etc?

But once again I reiterate that no matter what, the USA is the best place in the world for opportunity regardless of race or class.
I wholeheartedly agree. So do millions of illegal immigrants.... and US non-patriots that hire them.

Of course if you really like taxes and cradle to grave breast feeding then Sweden is the ideal place.
No thanks. My nipples are already sore from breast feeding the idle rich and idle poor as it is...
...since I still maintain that actual workers provide all the milk (wealth?). There is no such thing as free lunch. Somebody pays. Err... lactates...

A point of interest are the recent threads concerning affordable housing and the collapsing financial market. One suggestion, that my wife heard on the radio, was that we could just convert surplus steel shipping containers to cheap housing. They sell used for $500-2000 on ebay and they are bullet-proof. The alarming thing is that we don't send most empties back because of the huge trade imbalance. I wonder how long we can afford to do this.
Sounds like an anti-middleclass economy built on quicksand. And you and I are standing on it too. Any further thoughts?


...

[BeanCounter]

Wes,

Maybe it's your terminology. I'm getting ready to retire soon. I've got a pretty good chunk of change compared to most retirees so I'll live fairly well as "one of the idle rich". I worked hard and put money away so that I could do that and not depend on the charity of my kids or strangers. Why should I be penalized because the others did not do the same. And contrary to some opinions not everyone is equal. Some make more than others for a variety of different reasons.

As far as the housing collapse, it's about time. People went out and took out absolutely stupid loans betting on the come. Well sometimes it just doesn't come. I know that from going bankrupt when I was 40. When you lose you lose so stop the crying and expecting everyone else to bail you out. You just go back to work and try to make it back.

As far as taxing the imports I've only got one thing to say. There wouldn't be any imports if the so called middle class didn't buy every stinking thing they send over from China. How about passing a law that they can't shop at WalMart. You'd have a general uprising of callused hands. Most people are the victims of their own stupidity and then expect everyone else to bail them out.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by BeanCounter

Wes,

Maybe it's your terminology. I'm getting ready to retire soon. I've got a pretty good chunk of change compared to most retirees so I'll live fairly well as "one of the idle rich". I worked hard and put money away so that I could do that and not depend on the charity of my kids or strangers. Why should I be penalized because the others did not do the same. And contrary to some opinions not everyone is equal. Some make more than others for a variety of different reasons.

As far as the housing collapse, it's about time. People went out and took out absolutely stupid loans betting on the come. Well sometimes it just doesn't come. I know that from going bankrupt when I was 40. When you lose you lose so stop the crying and expecting everyone else to bail you out. You just go back to work and try to make it back.

As far as taxing the imports I've only got one thing to say. There wouldn't be any imports if the so called middle class didn't buy every stinking thing they send over from China. How about passing a law that they can't shop at WalMart. You'd have a general uprising of callused hands. Most people are the victims of their own stupidity and then expect everyone else to bail them out.

Bernie,

Yeah, terminology colors a view. I admit it.

Retirement? I nearly feel your pleasure. I've also worked hard and I'll be retiring in the near future. I might only have to work until I'm 66 since the Railroad Retirement (RR) follows the same increased Reagan age-rules as does the "raped and pillaged" Social Security fund. RR... here-to-fore protected by a political chastity belt so far. My retirement age depends on how the stock market does. Not that anyone would ever be tempted to manuver a way to pillage the newest untouched pile of investment money from the middleclass. RR, 401K, common stocks, etc. I predict it won't be long and we'll also be hearing about the terrible small investors encumberance and how the little 401K's are otherwise ruining everything for real Americans. And how good it is they've tanked.

I rather doubt you or I'll ever actually be "one of the idle rich" in the sense that it is unlikely that we'll ever fit in the exclusive top 5%. Doubt it barring the lottery which I don't often play anyway, as a matter of principle.

I guess for convenience sake we could look as the "idle" catagories being the top arbitrary 5% and the bottom arbitrary 5%. The bottom is related to the un-employment statistics which are probably really higher due to individuals falling off the recorded rolls. But the top 5% is probably a bit larger too. The bottom 5% is probably truely idle, while the top 5% is actually pretty busy pointing the finger at and demonizing the bottom 5%. Apparently, by the appropriate media purchases, the attention of the workers, who support all, can be diverted. I think I can afford the cheap bottom 5% but, again, I feel the lofty "invisable" top 5+% continues to clandestinely cost me (and you) a fortune. There's always that 10% (or more) anyway, eh?

My house is paid for. I took on an ARM when it halved my former rate. When it went up, I simply paid it off with cash-on-hand, part of the common-sense-plan. I agree with your take on the housing collapse. There are a lot of abusers looking for that usual handout. Unfortunately some people that chose the minimal modern house, have worked hard, and continue to do so, will also feel the pinch when their original job goes to China. First cavepersons worked 20 hours a week hunting and gathering. Then just modern dad worked 40 out in the patch. Then mom worked too. Then recently it was deemed that these lazy bums should both work more than 40 without costly overtime. Soon the American kids will be working 40+. All to keep a cave over their head. How can we compete with China if we don't erode the minimum-age work rules too. If we don't do what it takes, who will support the top and bottom 5% in the manner in which they've grown accustomed?

I don't blame Walmart personally. That's some liberal B.S. Walmart is just playing by the existing rules and playing it best, something I admire... if it's within the rules. But we can change the game rules away from mandating last man left standing, a dead end that will eventually kill America. When the American turf is equal, Walmart should/could still come out on top, but not entirely alone, in this huge Monopoly game... if they are as smart as I think they are. When I buy, I sometimes have to buy from Walmart/Target/China. Taxes and import tariffs aren't always, without fail, evil. Balance is the key. No sense walking around with their money in my pockets with my permission to take it all.

China isn't returning containers in trade by importing US goods with their extra cash. They are symbolically paying double for the lot next to your and my house. Great. Our home equity value will go way up during our retirement. We'll be rich. On paper.

Unfortunately our real estate taxes are based on home value. At least mine are. And cities can't conveniently go bankrupt like corporations can... and do... as SOP these days. So guess what one scheme, to again rip off the middle class via taxes, is? I've been a victim of my own stupidity enough... and I'm just reluctant to do it again. The middle class. Like Jamos saying... "we're doomed". Now if I can just convince everyone where the real danger lies and who really pays the taxes. And then fix it.

This isn't a partisan thing. The top 5% wield a lot of power in both parties. There are congressmen in both major parties that will help us. Alternatively, there are other politicians that are systematically sticking it to us within the smokescreen. Guys we sometimes voted for in the past.


...

[Jamo]

Wes, with all due respect, I gotta call bullsh!t on most of your statements.

Working that many hours without overtime, and then you talk about how good unions are? If your union is so good, they would have already solved that issue via the DOL or a grievance. Actually, I find your statement extremely hard to believe.

And unions now understand about running companies out of business? Again...total BS. Explain Delphi, GM, Ford... I can run down a list by the hundreds of companies that have been ripped apart and left for dead by unions..

Unions can't even agree on what's good anymore...note the largest ones leaving the old political bosses at the AFL-CIO: SEIU, Unite, UFCW, Teamsters and a few others. What's the fight about? Money. The interest of the workers mean little.

Card Check legislation...you don't even want folks to have the right to vote anymore. Instead...use peer pressure and hand folks a pen to sign up while the union organizers watch, or suffer the consequences. Karl Marx would love it.

Unions basically suck...the industries that are taking us into the future are the non-unionized ones. May they stay that way forever.

Course, that's just my opinion.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Wes, with all due respect, I gotta call bullsh!t on most of your statements.

Working that many hours without overtime, and then you talk about how good unions are? If your union is so good, they would have already solved that issue via the DOL or a grievance. Actually, I find your statement extremely hard to believe.

And unions now understand about running companies out of business? Again...total BS. Explain Delphi, GM, Ford... I can run down a list by the hundreds of companies that have been ripped apart and left for dead by unions..

Unions can't even agree on what's good anymore...note the largest ones leaving the old political bosses at the AFL-CIO: SEIU, Unite, UFCW, Teamsters and a few others. What's the fight about? Money. The interest of the workers mean little.

Card Check legislation...you don't even want folks to have the right to vote anymore. Instead...use peer pressure and hand folks a pen to sign up while the union organizers watch, or suffer the consequences. Karl Marx would love it.

Unions basically suck...the industries that are taking us into the future are the non-unionized ones. May they stay that way forever.

Course, that's just my opinion.

Jamo,

Considering the strength of opinions I gotta say I appreciate the civil manner in which you and Bernie replied.

The reason we don't normally get any overtime is because we work by the mile (my operations-craft as a train crewmember, roadcrew). Working all around us are Mechanical (car/locomotive repair), Maintainence of Way (ex: section gang), Yardmaster, Dispatcher and Switchmen... all of which work an 8 hour day with overtime over 8. I can guarantee you we, the train crews, do try to get over the road as quickly as possible since pay/miles are the same regardless of time essentially on duty. There are times that it seems everybody else plots against us with delay after delay. After 12 hours, FRA (Feds) require that we no longer operate. We may be stranded on a dead train, riding in a van or passengers on another train to get to a terminal where we can become "rested" off duty for at least 8 hours, that we may legally work again. The next duty call can come in 6:45 hrs with 1:15 advance duty notification. Whenever we excede 12 hours and about 45 minutes we do get overtime. Ex: My last trip out, 11:59 hrs, the last trip in, 12:00 hrs with 14:51 hrs rest layover, but alas, no overtime.

Explain Delphi, GM, Ford...
This is a little more complicated. Basically what you, and many others, are saying is that the workers are a terrible burden to their company. They took advantage of their contract. What we have here is a situation where Wimpy, of Popeye fame, says, "give me a hamburger today and I will pay you on Tuesday". It may be down on paper as a contract... but you, of anybody reading this, should know what a piece of paper is often worth today. Never ever believe Wimpy.

I can make a couple of biased comparos you may use for additional perspective.

Contracts:
Imagine that you are the counsel that has freed O.J.
Right up front you told him it would cost a lot of money. But O.J. is desperate and he agrees to pay. In a contract, mind you. Then after you win the case, he says, "You know, the real reason I'm free is because I'm obviously innocent. And I was just thinking about all the money you charged me, in my panic, for the obvious. I think it was too much. I don't deserve to be treated like that. It will be a hardship on me to pay it. I need the money for important stuff. So I'm going to ask my favorite politicians to reduce what you say I owe. And furthermore I'm going to loudly tell the public what a burden lawyers are... until the public actually believes it. Ripping us apart and leaving us for dead. Fighting back and forth at our expense and for what... money. The interest of the criminals...I mean clients... means little."
Jamo, as a sometimes berated union member, I know better and so do you. Should you as a lawyer for O.J. in this hypothetical instance, a provider of service, roll over or stand your ground? What about other providers?

Another comparo:
Some guys row the boat. Others call cadence and crack the whip. Still others man the tiller. And somebody(s), maybe one or all own the boat.
The guys rowing the boat sweat and work hard. For their effort they get an agreed upon "free lunch" even after retirement. To increase the bottom line the young guys still rowing get less food and/or row harder with less rowers. United, all (most?) of them agree they don't feel like rowing so much anymore. Damn uniters. To sweeten the deal, the owner provides free 5 cent bandaids for their blisters... even after retirement. It's in the contract. This was a good deal for the owner... until the price of bandaids went up to $100 each.

Arghh. The workers are now a terrible burden. Worse yet, the guy at the tiller was (and is?) steering in circles. So how can the boat owner afford the bandaids? Easy. Let the rowers pay for them. Or get cheaper rowers from China. Understandably, enough to make a rower want to sink the boat rather than give up a seat. Maybe some boats should be sunk. But I agree that's not realistic. The rowers should never have believed Wimpy. More importantly, somebody has to address the new cost of bandaids. Seems everybody only worries when everybody buys the bandaids. It's starting to happen.

Hmmm. Somewhere I saw a good joke on corporate rowing competition.

Card Check legislation... Hard call. But I will say that during the long drawn out National Labor Relations Board secret ballot elections, shrewd management has often intimidated or fired employees (est aver 1 in 5 if union-active) to the point that many certainly resent the ordeal. Card Check is merely a quick vote to circumvent this gauntlet. And admittedly gain advantage. Unfair? I don't know. There is a good reason for corporate to fight this and it highly likely isn't for the workers benefit. Follow the money. Also see more, both sides: Employee Free Choice Act ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act ).

Unions basically suck...
Yeah. It's too bad we need still them, after all these years. Need them to fight back against blue-blooded capitalist owner/manager coalitions that show little socialistic mercy towards the evil guy who actually does the pickin'. Unions are a necessary evil, not for the bluebloods of course.

But do you know what else is a necessary evil? With all due respect... and sorry to say it... but lawyers are. You may not agree lawyers are a necessary evil. But if the world was perfect and fair, there would be no disputes and I would not need to belong to a union... nor you to the bar.

We could work together. I think you'd make one he11 of a railroader.
Or maybe we could both pick grapes since everything would pay the same. Frolicking through the vines.
There wouldn't be any lawyers. But there would be balance of sorts, of course. Little too creamy and dull for me, I like a little conflict just to keep things interesting. A little unfairness. A continuing variance mixture of capitalism and socialism. That's just my opinion.

The industries that are taking us into the future are the non-unionized ones?
I don't know. Might not be much of a future for us caucasians. Even the Chinese are rethinking their vast government union policies... according to the latest Teamster propoganda. Seems like over half of Chinese exports aren't from Chinese owned factories. Outsiders, taking advantage of previously cheap labor no doubt. Hoffa was over there corrupting them, according to the article. It's getting to be a world economy.



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[Jamo]

Wes

Since I don't belong to a union, and therefore don't have free paid time, I can't take all the time necessary to respond to your well-written post.

As to your overtime issue, the Railway Act conspires with the Fair Labor Standards Act to put you in the situation you're in. I've run into much the same thing with commercial fishermen working on factory ships, irrigation crews sitting in the desert waiting for Colorado River water to be delivered at their designated canal gate in the middle of the night, or tow truck drivers finding themselves "released" but chained to their cell phones and having to stay within a few minutes of the tow truck. I now understand the scenario you're working under...thanks for the info. BTW, you're screwed.

Your OJ/oarsmen examples are fun, but they really are a bit simplistic, aren't they. Maybe if you have OJ pointing a gun to his attorney's head to force him to be his attorney, or the oarsmen threaten a mutiny just before the worst rapids one might imagine, I could accept them as viable comparisons.

The problem is not just with the cost of the contract, the wages or the benefits going into the building of Impalas today...it is the cost of maintaining the benefits of the folks who built real Impalas several decades ago. The Warren Court and the NLRB of the late 50s and 60s did a fine job of making it nearly impossible for a strike to be defended against, and hot cargo actions simply served to completely strangle anyone who dared to take on the AFL-CIO, the Kennedys and the Johnsons. The laws and enforcement have only recently come back to what they were supposed to be: guidelines for a fair struggle between the parties which could lead to fair agreements which make neither suffer at the hand of the other. Easy to blame designers for product, but that doesn't answer the problem of not having enough money to put the good designs into producxtion or raising the prices of the product beyond the competition because of labor costs of folks that don't even work anymore. The PBGC is all but bankrupt from the defined-benefit plans, and yet Taft-Hartley trust funds run by the unions are so overfunded that they could build dozens of replicas of Las Vegas where the Teamsters could only put up a few casinos. Some trust funds even tell companies to take a month off from paying premiums, as if to rub their noses into it.

We are all paying for this. Look at your own industry and compare it with European and Japanese railroads...modern rails and equipment draw folks to ride and rely on that form of transportation. Other than a few Eastern and the San Diego-LA runs, nobody wants to use it as daily transportation. Look at the movement of freight...a megaport is being built south of TJ because our beloved Longshoremen don't want to allow our stateside ports to put in the modern equipment that the rest of the Pacific Rim operates with...because it will result in having to give up a great deal of featherbedding. Modern cargo carriers simply won't go to LA-Long Beach, Oakland or Seattle anymore. So we will get our lead painted toys from China via Mexico within the next decade, probably brought across by Mexican trusk which have no need to comply with the DOT. Stuff like this requires years to plan and build, and investment funds to get it going, neither of which is going to happen when labor negotiations and fellow-traveler environmentalist organization lawsuits step in to slow things down to a crawl. Time is money (more so today than a few decades ago), so why fight in courts for 10 years just to get something started when the Mexican government (or Canadian for that matter) will give you the damn land and water access just so they can develop their own economies.

It's funny, Democrats who write long letters to former territories of the Soviet Union, China and emerging Latin American nations extolling the virtues of allowing free elections for labor organizational rights are the authors of card checks. The folks in Turkistan would understand card checks a lot easier than the concept of freedom of choice in an election booth...he!!, they still carry their Communist Party cards around as momentos...they don't want choice, they just want toilet paper.

Lawyers...yup, the basturds. I was a farmer first...I drove tractor, picked grapes and tomatos and stayed up all night lighting smudge pots and starting up old airplane motors we used for wind machines. But when folks start talking about taking ag water away for a Teamster financed golf course, want to shove catalytic converters up cow asses and won't let us plow because some gawddamn prairie dog who happens to have a white tail instead of tan one lives in the field, it's either grab a gun or a briefcase.

Yet folks get all touchy when the produce they eat starts making em sick...imagine Mexican produce irrigated with sewage water. You're already eating it. More to come...please wash it thoroughly.

We have forgotten how to work...but by golly, we know our rights!

BTW...when can I take a turn at running one of them big badasses down the tracks?