Half GM Cars On Ethonol By 2012

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by GlynMeek

ah yes but...read my post about the PRODUCTION of hydrogen! GREAT and perfect fuel though it is, how are we going to produce enough of it?

Glyn

Well if the government were to promote it the way they have promoted fuel ethanol, they would use the electricity that was generated by burning oil, to generate hydrogen and oxygen from water and tell us that they had found a way to reduce dependence on foreign oil. Of course they would also subsidize the whole industry.

Wayne

[Ron61]

I saw another write up in the paper this morning that now they have decided, they being the so called scientists that the environmentalists paid to say this, that using ethanol would contribute more to the green house gases than just burning the gasoline. Their explanation was that as the Govt. paid more and more for grain to make it, farmers would start plowing under more and more grass and brush bearing land and we would lose the oxygen that the plants generate. I didn't read the whole article as so much of this stuff is misleading and I am not an expert in the energy field. But neither are some of these so called environmentalists.

Ron

[Wayne Maybury]

Ron

Another major problem with corn based ethanol is the fertilizer required to grow corn. I believe that corn requires much more fertilizer than many other crops. At least part of the fertilizer is oil derived and of course there is the run off problems when it rains.

Corn prices have stabilized around $5 per bushel but with all of the corn now being planted, wheat prices literally gone through the roof. As a matter of fact, almost all grain prices are way up.

Wayne

[Ron61]

Wayne,

A few years ago there was a Sci Fi show that I liked called Sea Quest. It was kind of the ocean going version of Star Trek. In one episode they had made cows illegal all over the world because the cow piles caused methane gas. Except Australia refused to get rid of theirs and the supply officer had managed to get hold of a big chunk of hamburger and had made himself a huge cheese burger and the Captain caught him. After lecturing him for a minute or so and confiscating the cheeseburger the Captain threw it into the garbage disposal, but not before he ate about half of it.

As for the fertilizer, do what the Indians did originally. Plant a corn seed and bury a fish with it. Worked great for them.

Ron

[427 S/O]

No brainer...use solar cells to make electricity, and use the electricity to make hydrogen.........Well.

[Wayne Maybury]

S/O

Better still, produce the elctricity from hydro dams.

In the future there will definitely be a lot more electricity generated from solar or wind.

Wayne

[GlynMeek]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh...

1) solar cells..great in theory...not yet practical in the VAST QUANTITIES NEEDED to switch Western economies to a hydrogen base...BUT...good in theory, we just need A LOT MORE work to make them practical and efficient!

2) hydroelectricity is wonderful, but we have dammed just about everything we can dam, and the ones we have are starting to silt up, so that's becoming impractical and increasingly worrisome

3) wind power is also a great alternative, but a) communities (especially the wealthy folks who live on the coastal areas where wind power is MOST effective) are objecting to the 'ugliness' of lots of wind power machines (f***ing idiots!!!) and b) most wind power is actually generated at night (when demand is lowest), and we STILL haven't found an effective and/or efficient way of storing electrical energy for the peak times when we need it. I understand that Austin (where I live) is the number one city in the country for wind energy, and the Austin Energy people have explained this issue to me a number of times.

most of these 'wonderful' solutions all work, but in a VERY small way, and we NEED to find a solution that is scalable (IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME!!!!!) to satisfy the unbelievably large energy requirements of the western economies....

...sorry, we're still DOOMED, but keep thinking...

Glyn

[Wayne Maybury]

Glyn

I mentioned hydro electricty almost as a joke. I live in Quebec where close to 100% of the electricity comes from hydro power. In addition to filling all of Quebec residential and normal industrial power requirements, Hydro Quebec also has long term contracts with several world scale aluminum smelters and other energy intensive industries. Quebec also exports huge amounts of electricity to Vermont, and several other US states and we have some of the lowest residential electrical power rates in North America.

Wayne

[Ron61]

At this moment we just don't have the technology or ability to replace oil with any really viable alternative. And the people in power don't want to spend the money it would take to really try to find a viable solution. Same as the water issue in Southern Calif. They have the Pacific Ocean there but will not send the money to build desalinization plants as it is cheaper to keep taking water from other places which are now starting to run short. When the water from the Colorado River is shut off, then and only then will they panic and start thinking about other solutions. Same seems to apply toward the oil issue. Don't worry about it now as we can still make billions, let the next generation worry about not having any power.

Ron

[427 S/O]

Glyn's hero......

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."

--Charles H. Duell

[Ron61]

Well with the way things are going and their announcement this morning, GM can probably have half of their cars on Ethanol in a few years as they won't be making many.

Ron

[rdorman]

Ethanol is a bandaid.

[Ron61]

Right now everything is a band aid. Everything they come up with has more drawbacks than it does good. I don't know of any everlasting source of energy. Kind of like the perpetual motion thing back in the 50s and early 60s. Over by Coalinga, which is a few miles from Fresno, they had a fair once and you should have seen some of the things inventors brought to try and get perpetual motion. The last time I was there which was a long time ago, many of those contraptions were still setting in the field rusting away.

Ron

[GlynMeek]

Perry...lol...NOW I feel embarrassed... It's not that at all, and I REALLY don't mean to sound pessimistic, it's just that I have studied this stuff for years now, and NO-ONE sems to be doing much about solving what I TRULY consider to be the biggest issue facing the human race right now.

Global warming, arab nutcases (potentially redundant?), Hillary vs Obama vs McCain, declining education standards etc. etc ALL pale in irrelevant comparison, that's all.

I DO believe there are short term protective measures and long term solutions,

I JUST DON'T THINK ANYONE IS WORKING ON THEM with enough attention, funding, concern or diligence. Every politician I have ever spoken to at civic, state or federal levels (mayors, governors, congress and senate level!) either ignores it, or is way too stupid to understand the severity of the issue.

Glyn



Gly

[427 S/O]

Glyn, there is work in progress on a number of alternatives. Although not up to speed, I'm watching these two......

The Solar-Powered Home Hydrogen Fueling Station : TreeHugger


ZAP Electric Cars | Ride The Future

[Ron61]

Perry,

I read about the home hydrogen system some time ago and the thing I see as a major drawback is the 100 mile limit. In places like here where people have to drive 200 miles and more to work or locations, that would just not work. Same problem with some of the electric hybrids they have tested in this area. The mountains are so steep that even the little gas engine can barely haul all that weight up to the top of the passes and it doesn't
charge the batteries as it is using everything it has to pull the car. Same for the electric motors that will go 50 miles on a charge. Here they are lucky to make it 10 miles. That could be a short term solution for the cities, but it won't work for outlying areas. Maybe the cities should have a fleet of them at the city limits and have a big parking area for people to park in and then use an electric or hybrid while they are in the city.

Ron

[Joe Wicked]

One thing with the using solar to charge the car batteries that people are not addressing is the fact that most cars will not be plugged in while the sun is out. The Hydrogen idea is at least making the hydrogen while you are at work. Wind power will work day or night, but we end up with days of no wind, so no power. Any of these systems will end up with people loosing their garages for the equipment. Houses are just not built with the idea of space being dedicated to something of this nature. If you have a garage that is really just of to the side of the house, you can build a structure for this easily, but if you are like me and the garage is in front of the house, you can't. I appreciate the efforts, but I get annoyed with people who tout "Here is the solution to all are problems" when, what I consider, basic items are not even addressed.

[427 S/O]

Joe, the home hydrogen generator prototype is a few years old and much improvement will come with regards to size, volume and storage. $90 oil is the mother of invention, so to speak. Just give it time.....

[Joe Wicked]

Yea, I understand that, I was just reading the comments on that site and it annoyed me that some were all about how this is the end all beat all, when there are still major issues with it.

[Excaliber]

Hawaii has had wind power up and running for years, a lot of the machines are now abandoned how ever. On Maui a wind power company is suing the local Electric power company because they won't buy wind power. Problem is the wind power is so inconsistent and spotty. Wind power says they will use banks of batteries to smooth out the flow of power.

They tried Geo Thermal on the Big Island, that got shut down. To many 'leaks' letting out the sulphur compounds and causing a big 'stink'.

Recently there is a HUGE push from local government to do SOMETHING about the oil problem (we have to import about everything we use). So Wind power is back on the table, Geo as well. The 'new kid' on the block is wave power from the ocean, that looks promising (until the first hurricane takes it out). Cold water from DEEP in the ocean for use in air conditioning is moving forward with more vigor. I was involved (software) with one of the first applications of sea water air conditioning on Kaui about 15 years ago. THAT project is still doing well (Hyatt Regency) but upkeep costs have been far higher than expected. Seems the sand in the water tends to eat everything up (pipes, valves, pumps, filters, etc).

Increased fertilizer run off from the corn boom is killing the Gulf big time, a problem mostly swept under the carpet at this point.

There is no free lunch...