UAW On Strike

[Ron61]

If this darn union keeps this up they won't have any jobs at all to go back to one of these days. I can't believe the hourly pay they gave in this article.

UAW goes on strike against American Axle - Yahoo! News

Ron

[Silverback51]

Some of these companies will not be happy until we are a 3rd world country.

Also what I find amazing, is if they continue to cut the wages of their workers, who do they think will be able to afford to buy their products.

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Some of these companies will not be happy until we are a 3rd world country.

Also what I find amazing, is if they continue to cut the wages of their workers, who do they think will be able to afford to buy their products.

Yea, but at $70/hour, they could still afford the products with a $14/hour cut. Come on, $70/hour is $145,000/year to build axles. It is not rocket science.

[Ron61]

And since their main consumer is GM which is losing money as fast as the Govt., what good is it going to do to keep demanding more when they may not even have a market soon. That $70 dollars an hour was just out of reason I think. This is going to have a bad effect on all. If they get more per hour, then they will have to raise the price of their axles which means GM will have to raise the price of their vehicles again and soon no one will be able to afford to buy them. So what happens then. And if they can't live on that pay, maybe they had better consider adjusting their living style to fit their means.

Edit: The way I read it is the $70 per hour is labor costs and doesn't mention benefits which I interpet to mean their pay. The colored sections below would seem to indicate their benefits are not included in the $70 dollar figure.

Elimination of future retiree health care and defined benefit pensions were also issues, the UAW said. The union also said American Axle failed to provide the UAW with information it needed to evaluate the proposed cuts.

In a statement, the Detroit-based company said the union had "singled out" the supplier by refusing to allow it to cut hourly labor costs that are three times higher than its rivals at over $70 per hour.


Ron

[Rich A]

FIRE THEM ALL!!!
Like Joe Wicked said "It is not rocket science."
I'll work for 2/3 or $46 an hour and the benfits they get and I'm pretty sure there's a lot of axle mechanic that would too.
And we can keep the job here in the US so Silverback51 will be happy.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

Yea, but at $70/hour, they could still afford the products with a $14/hour cut. Come on, $70/hour is $145,000/year to build axles. It is not rocket science.

I'm in a hurry, but I did not read that their wages was $70.00/hour. Where was that?

Did that $70.00/hour include all of their benefits? I can believe that, but I find it hard to believe that their take home wages is $70.00/hour.

And if it is, I have to agree, that is on the high side for what is required of the job.

[Cobrabill]

F the UAW......

[RICK LAKE]

Ron 61 The jobs are gone already. There is NOTHING the unions can to but strike and CRY. Plants are being shut down when the contracts are over. UAW can thank the fisher body plants for starting this snowball, followed by delco. They stopped all work for GM alone. Big I worked for GM in linden NJ and the Ford plant in Edison for 3 years 2 months. All the Auto builders are going to Mexico, China, Korea, Russia, and gods knows where else. Rumor has it the one of the big 3 has over 2 miles of buildings that are going to do ALL the auto building for a division. The UAW can thank themselves for protecting the crap workers who where drunk, high, late, or just didn't care about there jobs. The people who cared are the ones getting the shaft. It's almost impossible to fire a line worker for not working. I know, I have been through many a problem worker being a GU line worker. There is a car that gets 50+ MPG and is coming to the US. Price will be about $3,000.00 dollars. Just like the YUGO. Gas is going to go up I am guessing $3.50 per gallon by summer. This country can't survive on services alone with out manufactoring and building things. I am not talking about HOUSES. This is why the country is in the crapper now. New president is screwed. There is a flushing sound just starting, I hope we are all ready for the ride. Rick L. Ps any body on the northeastern coast want to start a solar panel manufacturing company. This is a 20 billion dollar enterprise that is about to start. Cali made it mandatory thatany home build in 2020 has to have full solor system. The Gas and oil companies DON'T want this.

[Wayne Maybury]

The only thing the Big 3 have in common that is not the same for all of the off-shore auto producers is the UAW. The UAW doesn't want to recognize that they have fewer and fewer members while the non-unionized auto workers numbers are growing all the time. Probably the biggest problem with the unionized workers is that the employer cannot get rid of the dead wood. The good quality workers get fed up and end up quitting or just going along with the rest of the workers. Few if any can strive for excellence.

The UAW tried to unionize one foreign owned auto plant quite a few years ago. It was the Hyundai assembly plant in Bromont, Quebec. Hyundai closed the plant down within weeks after the union was certified.

The UAW is probably the biggest problem the Big 3 have today. This strike shows that the UAW still does not see the big picture.

Wayne

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Ron61

And since ...

Edit: The way I read it is the $70 per hour is labor costs and doesn't mention benefits which I interpet to mean their pay. The colored sections below would seem to indicate their benefits are not included in the $70 dollar figure.

Elimination of future retiree health care and defined benefit pensions were also issues, the UAW said. The union also said American Axle failed to provide the UAW with information it needed to evaluate the proposed cuts.

In a statement, the Detroit-based company said the union had "singled out" the supplier by refusing to allow it to cut hourly labor costs that are three times higher than its rivals at over $70 per hour.


Ron

On the other hand, if the $70/hour figure was released by the American Axle company, you can pretty well figure they tacked on everything they could think of to inflate the appearance of high "labor costs".

It probably includes all the Social Security matching, Workmans Compensation and the entire salaries of all the Payroll Department, Human Resources, company nurse etc. And anybody doing something unrelated they can pack into these depts. Also figure a substancial amount of overtime being averaged in because the company is trying to get by with as few as employees as possible (and mandatory OT is norm now). Then not to forget any pension, 401k matching and other little bennies. And then the biggy, health care... which makes $70 hour charge for just about anything look like peanuts, seemingly extorting us all for more like $700/hr if we want to live.

All these above are labor costs; I would, and did, sure count them in my own company. These represent real costs per hour per employee, though hidden from our daily "Joe Six-pack" view. Anybody out there making a mere $30/hour? Well it is a lot more than that. Enough that your company could make your job look overpaid in their press release. The working class apparently needs to be divided and conquered.

Now with a little Enron accounting, I think a corporate board could reason that the only reason that a company would need management ...would be to oversee hourly employees. So the financial burden of management would also be the employees fault, jacking up labor costs yet again. And really unruly employees would require really good management, drawn from other corporate boards of course (with huge bonuses and all). The employees, them dirty bums, further gouging stockholders like that.

Three times higher labor costs than its rivals alright. In China. In Mexico. In new Delhi. I think Rick Lake nailed it.

My guess is that they are probably actually making about $28-32 hour straight time, not too bad really.


...

[Joe Wicked]

I read it the same way Ron did. That the hourly rate was $70 and they wanted to cut it back, and cut benefits, so I did not think that the pay rate was including benefits. If they are rolling the cost of company nurse, etc... in then I can see where a $14 cut can be more of a cut than before.

Please also keep in mind that even if your competitors are in a foreign country, they are still your competitors. If you charge more for the same product, your product really has to be superior in every way, and there is still a limit. I work in the telecommunications industry (cell phones), and our competitors are all either completely foreign or (as we are) a foreign company with a US company as a subsidiary to handle US operations, with the exception of Motorola. Motorola now is for sale. They are folding. Qualcomm did the same when I worked for them, they sold to Kyocera. The reality is the US company has to compete with the foreign company. In our case, they use top quality materials, but the manufacturing (based in Korea) costs are very low due to very low labor costs. This keeps the Top Tier phones priced in the same range as Motorola's Mid Tier phones. Hard to compete with that, when your labor costs are 3 times your competitor.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

I read it the same way Ron did. That the hourly rate was $70 and they wanted to cut it back, and cut benefits, so I did not think that the pay rate was including benefits. If they are rolling the cost of company nurse, etc... in then I can see where a $14 cut can be more of a cut than before.

Please also keep in mind that even if your competitors are in a foreign country, they are still your competitors. If you charge more for the same product, your product really has to be superior in every way, and there is still a limit. I work in the telecommunications industry (cell phones), and our competitors are all either completely foreign or (as we are) a foreign company with a US company as a subsidiary to handle US operations, with the exception of Motorola. Motorola now is for sale. They are folding. Qualcomm did the same when I worked for them, they sold to Kyocera. The reality is the US company has to compete with the foreign company. In our case, they use top quality materials, but the manufacturing (based in Korea) costs are very low due to very low labor costs. This keeps the Top Tier phones priced in the same range as Motorola's Mid Tier phones. Hard to compete with that, when your labor costs are 3 times your competitor.

Joe,

I understand what you're saying. I just think there is another side of the coin here. I think it was vague on purpose.

The $70 figure was released by the company:
"In a statement, the Detroit-based company said the union had "singled out" the supplier by refusing to allow it to cut hourly labor costs that are three times higher than its rivals at over $70 per hour."

So my saying "On the other hand, if the $70/hour figure was released by the American Axle company, you can pretty well figure they tacked on everything they could think of to inflate the appearance of high "labor costs"...." refers this "$70 of what" may be purposely vague to mislead. It just makes sense they would spin it best they could, so I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, they did.

Then:
Whereas the cut-in-half scenario was from an employee:
"Carl Jackson, a 13-year American Axle veteran, said union negotiators told rank-and-file members the company had been unbudging in demands for pay cuts that would cut compensation in half for many workers."

And the stated $14 cut from the union:
"The United Auto Workers said the strike had begun at 12:01 ET on Tuesday. Talks broke off Monday with major issues unresolved, including demands for wage cuts of up to $14 per hour, the union said".

The two preceding paragraphs lead me to believe the paid wages are lower than $70/hr.

I surely admit it doen't look too good for the UAW. We can already see that some rivals are at least UAW (implied American?):
"American Axle said the union was in effect singling the company out for demanding wages and benefits about equal to those that rivals now have under their own UAW agreements."

I have to say it seems the end result may be a lockout and the next thing across the picket line could be flatbed trailers large enough to transport Mazak equipment. UAW has a lot of b@lls. It's better to strike over something that can't easily be moved, like a railroad.
'Course that's illegal. Probably cause it can't be moved.

I wouldn't mind government restrictions and protective tariffs on some things. Like Motorola not being allowed to die over imports. Motorola was a great company. Where will we get our military electronics during the next war? Walmart?


...

[4RE KLR]

Ten years ago I said we would be throwing rocks at each other in the streets of this country.

Well folks, it looks like we are still track, five more years to go. I am going to start stock piling my rocks now, so I won't get caught up in the shortage. LOL

F-em all. At $70.00 an hour and they still bit#$^. Let them go with ZERO Income and see how the hell they like that!

[Smokingcobra2]

Typical union mentality. The stewards and union officials dont care, they live off the poor slobs dues. When will the lazy union workers realize others will actually WORK for less. Have been envolved with union work rules all my life and it's absurd the crap they try to get away with. In the dictionary the definition of LAZY== UNION WORKER
joeg

[Jamo]

To be honest, and as much as I hate unions, I read it the same way Wes does. In collective bargaining jargon, "labor costs" implies something more than pure wages, but would include only direct labor cost items...health and retirement benefits, shift premiums, etc., and not any non-labor costs such as a portion of facility overhead.

Given that the two parties are making statements to the press, I would assume they are being very specific about the terms they are using given probable NLRB oversight of their dispute.

That being said, you can also assume that the cuts, even though they are referred to as "wage cuts" are likely being proposed in such a way where the company is saying it wants a $14 reduction and suggesting that the union figure out where those cuts can come from...insurance premiums, lower shift premium rates, etc., but that the workers/union are feeding it to the press as money out of their paycheck.

Very common terminolgy...

I agree...competition in this day and age is worldwide. You can argue about politics, NAFTA, outsourcing or anything else all you want...it does not matter. Just be damn happy our buck ain't worth much on the world stage right now or we would have even more of a problem selling our products beyond our borders or competing against goods coming in. But given the references made in the article by the employer, it would seem that the UAW has been whipsawing them within their own industry...employment suicide for their own members.

Wes...not sure I understand your reference to a lockout, given the offensive strike action. Depends on whether permanent replacements are hired rather than a closure.

[Cobrabill]

Rick-solar is a pipe dream.

[Ronbo]

This is also why Toyota set up shop in Tennesee. The unions have driven more busineses under and paved the way for the Japanese to take many industries over.

Didn't matter if you were an assembly line worker or the floor sweeper at Ford, unskilled labor started at 4~5x minimum wage w/ full benefits. My brother-in-law worked there 30yrs. Even he'd admit he was overpaid.

A lot of people don't realize that they actually cost the company almost double what they make to employ them. Not to mention the harassment of all these government agencies and tax authorities, the workman's comp scam, unemployment screwing...

You don't even want to know what I pay for medical insurance for my 26 employees. If I had to deal with a union, I'd pack it up.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Jamo

To be honest, and as much as I...
.........
...employment suicide for their own members.

Wes...not sure I understand your reference to a lockout, given the offensive strike action. Depends on whether permanent replacements are hired rather than a closure.

By lockout, I mean that I believe it is common for a manufacturing plant to go into lock-out as soon as a strike ensues just for security reasons. This prevents someone, or a partial group, from entering the premises, ostensibly to work, but secretly to create sabotage. Selected folks, such as management or replacement workers, can enter.

Locally, for instance, a Bobcat plant (skid-steer loaders) recently locked out union employees as soon as they struck. Normally there is nothing to stop the public from just walking right on in. They only installed gates a few years ago and they are not manned normally.

A fear expressed to me by one of the employees, that I know well (voted not to strike), said that at that point the company could send trucks to remove plant fixtures such as Mazak CNC machines and tooling with the plan being to ship them to thee new factory overseas.

Picture, if you will, kind of a perverse Norman Rockwell moment, an employee standing there, holding his picket sign as snow falls, as a flatbed hauls out the machine that he used to operate ....across his picket line. Perhaps his gloves and an empty paper coffee cup from the last day still sitting near the control console.

In reality, moving a plant usually doesn't happen quite that fast. That could be a public relations disaster for the corporation.


...

[Ron61]

Jamo,

The reason I read it as they didn't include their health and retirement benefits in the wage cuts was that they listed them in a separate paragraph. I am sure they will be cut too as they always do. I just figured there were other labor costs they were using in the $70 an hour figure.

Wes,

When the telephone companies would go on strike they would take the keys to the offices from all the union employees. Those of us who worked all over had one master key that fit all of the different locks on the computer buildings. I only remember one so called lock out and it lasted about 3 days as we were getting a new computer ready and the company didn't want the people back in there until we had it finished. So after the strike was settled they kept them out for that 3 days. I think what really was the death blow to the local union here for the telecommunications industry was they cut a main cable to a place up in the mountains and a man died because of it. He had a heart attack and they had no way to call for help. They also cut trees and blocked the roads and actually had two shootings, so the union people were pretty much on the way out when that was over. You just won't find much sympathy or backing for the unions in this area any more.

Edit To correct: Wes, I was looking in one of my old left over test books and what they had I don't think could be called a lock out. We were in the middle of testing some new stuff that had never been released to the field before and there wasn't even any manuals on it at that time. So the union and company agreed to have the workers stay out for 2 more days, not 3, and at half pay until we got the test to the point they could begin to work in on this stuff. It would have been kind of like walking into the middle of a surgery and taking over when it wasa new type and unproven surgery.

Ron

[Joe Wicked]

As far as Motorola, they are not going completely away. Just selling their Cell Phone division. Just like Qualcomm did. Once someone buys the division, there will be no more US based Cell Phone companies, unless someone buys it and continues it as a separate operation. In the case of Kyocera, they bought the Qualcomm division to begin sales in the US under their name. The division still operates out of San Diego, but it is a subsidiary of the Japanese company.