Burn Hydrogen in your Car. Does this really Work?

[Ron61]

Steve,

Just add the Google Tool Bar. It has a spell checker and I have been using it all this time.

Ron

[427 S/O]

The 'autofill' is a handy tool along with the spell checker.

[trularin]

Yes, Steve...you do need this.

[4RE KLR]

Tru,
Would the fuel need to be heated for this to work to any benefit?

I see that some of the kits have fuel heaters and others do not. I find that interesting. When I was much younger we raced. We always chilled the fuel to get better performance. It made a little positive difference on Gasoline but a huge difference on Methane.

[Wes Tausend]

...

Steve,

To be honest, I don't think this is on the level. Some of the guys at work have asked me about the "wonders of hydrogen" and they basically initially expect to get some sort of free power or boost from water by "extracting energy" from it. When oxygen and hydrogen are already combined as in a state of water, it is like they are already a discharged battery or burnt fuel. When they are separate, chemical energy can be had from the burn, or re-combining of the atoms. Here is a site ( http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/page1.php?QNum=1532 ) that describes it simply, "Water itself is burned hydrogen, and the energy required to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen is equal to the energy released when the hydrogen subsequently burns back into water. Energy in and energy out. Just as in bicycling, if you want to roll downhill, you have to pedal uphill first.".

In that one could get better mileage out of diesel by adding hydrogen in a careful manner ...that may be true. The engine may burn less diesel for the same amount of power output. But the comparative equivalent would be to add gasoline to the engine to increase the power output and also burn less diesel. The financial flaw is that the engine is substituting some of the diesel fuel and burning a different fuel to make up for it. Adding gasoline would save diesel but at no better savings. Hydrogen is even more expensive than gasoline, since the cheapest way to make it is by reforming methane or natural gas. Right now electrolysis of water to get hydrogen costs more.

One of the guys was persistant in that the engine could drive the car and run an alternator to make hydrogen by electrolysis and then the engine could burn the hydrogen to drive the alternator. Perpetual motion. But I'm sure you have noted that if you ever boost another car battery, a near dead one, with your engine running, that the alternator gives an audible moan and severely loads the engine until the idle control valve (on modern fuel injection) can kick idle back up to the correct rpm. Be assured that the engine is burning more fuel at a higher throttle setting to charge the dead battery even if all it does is maintain rpm at greater torque.

Perhaps by adding hydrogen to the mix one could cool the intake mixture and derive more power but that would necessitate the hydrogen being stored under compression and cooling under release. The work needed to compress it, which gives off heat, negates the gain from releasing it. This sort of thing is seen by using nitrous oxide injection and an engine can take the cooling advantage of either more efficient high compression ratio, or more commonly, higher turbo pressure. So besides just the extra oxygen available for burn, additional power is made from the cooling effect. But it is definately not cheap power, just a lot stored and conveniently burned in a small place at once.

Here is another more elaborate overall site on the future of hydrogen:
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy )


...

[427 S/O]

Wes, the only out I see with energy cost= energy spent, is to use solar cells to run the hydrogen generator. I believe this is the best alternative when the storage process is resolved.....IMO.

[trularin]

I have looked at a couple of these "generators" and some of the guys appear to be boiling the water.

What you might want to look at is a stable tank with salt water in it. Water does not conduct electricity...contrary to what you have seen on TV, it doesn't. SO, you need to add a "free Ion", like salt.

Then you will need two plates, stainless steel if you can ( the salt will take longer to rot them ) They need to be separated with a good electrical connection to the top of the stable tank.

You will also need a pressure bleed off valve like the one on a weed sprayer and last, you will need a hose.

So, you mount the plates in the tank at ends. Mount the pressure bleed off valve and connector for the hose to the top.

Put salt water into the tank and connect a 12V battery. The gasses coming off out of the hose connector is very combustible. Pipe that into the intake on your engine and away you go.

Here are a few things you should know.

1. most current production cars get great performance improvements from this, but the mileage is usually not that good...for gas. It is because the computer that controls the A/F mixture can not compensate for the Hydrogen and added Oxygen.

2. Many cars run hotter as the A/F is not at the 13.5 to one, but higher.

3. Aluminum engines appear to have problems with the heat and salt ( didn't understand this comment, but I figured I'd pass it on )

Check the internet for articles written by people that have tried this.

[4RE KLR]

Wes
Great information. Thanks.

The power it takes to charge the water would come from the battery in the truck. The alternator would keep that charged as it is driven. With Diesel there is no MAP sensor so the hydrogen could be plumed right into the intake. I am thinking about a new piece that would fit between the intake from the filter and the air inlet on the intake, where the connection is being made now, from the factory. Simply remove the air intake tube put this new piece in the middle and put the tube onto the new piece. There would be no additional energy needed to create the hydrogen. It would however be a supplement to the diesel fuel being burnt. Right???? ...???

Tru
I am thinking of using pure baking soda instead of salt. For that very reason. I am also thinking of using stainless steel wire instead of plates so the hydrogen bubbles could be released easier. Stainless steel wire is easy to get at most any hardware store around here.

I have a few problems that I do not like about this.
ONE:
It would be a pain to have to always check the water level under the hood. Yes I know it would be easy when you check the oil but you and I both know most people do not do that as often as they should.

TWO:
The water will freeze in the winter. I think if I could come up with a way to hook up the windshield washer fluid reservoir to the container, that would solve this issue. Then that does not put the baking soda in the water. I have tested (not under a microscope) putting baking soda in with some windshield washer solvent and see no adverse effects. It wouldn't freeze and it would not need to be constantly filled up. It is not abrasive so it would not scratch the windshield.

It would mean the windshield washer fluid would need filled up more often. But not as often as the small water tank.

It would (or could) also mean a new product on the shelves. One that was suitable for both cases.

With a newer car that does have a MAP sensor it would need a different devise to alter the flow. I haven't thought about that much as I am working on one for the diesel first.

[4RE KLR]

Wes
BTW
Great articles in the links. I had seen one but not both of them.