Remember that pilot who's pistol discharged...

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

It's simple.

Make the penalty for an accidental discharge immediate termination and loss of flight status.

If that doesn't work, make the penalty for accidental discharge the supervisor's job and a fine.

In the military, the only way to prevent accidental discharges is to punish that person's supervisor. That way it's almost assured that it will get checked and double checked and the individual will receive more training than they can stand.

Don't punish the people who follow the rules. Punish the idiot who doesn't and if that's not enough, punish his boss.

Actually, It's not that simple at all.
First of all this is a volunteer program. Threaten a guy that if he makes a mistake he'll lose pay or his job, and they'll all resign from the program about as fast as they can get through on the phone to do so. There is no pay No pay involved for the program, lots of free time is donated to it to qualify and stay current.

The problem is that the program is set up so that the pilot has to handle the gun, lock and unlock, don and remove, many times per flight. It's ridiculous. Let the guys wear the gun like every other law enforcement officer can, lose the silly locks, and if more training is required to allow that, pay them to attend so they can get the requisite training. The program is set up so accidents like these are inevitable. This may be the first, it won't be the last.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Actually, It's not that simple at all.
First of all this is a volunteer program. Threaten a guy that if he makes a mistake he'll lose pay or his job, and they'll all resign from the program about as fast as they can get through on the phone to do so. There is no pay No pay involved for the program, lots of free time is donated to it to qualify and stay current.

The problem is that the program is set up so that the pilot has to handle the gun, lock and unlock, don and remove, many times per flight. It's ridiculous. Let the guys wear the gun like every other law enforcement officer can, lose the silly locks, and if more training is required to allow that, pay them to attend so they can get the requisite training. The program is set up so accidents like these are inevitable. This may be the first, it won't be the last.

The program didn't make this idiot discharge his gun. I don't care if the program makes him load it, unload, dry fire it, holster it, put it in a safe, remove it from a safe....whatever.

PEOPLE discharge firearms, not programs. Just like PEOPLE kill other people with firearms. You can pass all the laws you want. You can alter all the policies and do whatever you like, but it's training the PEOPLE that prevents firearm accidents.

If a person isn't qualified, then maybe they shouldn't oughtta volunteer to carry the damned thing. If you can't even negotiate this "program" without discharging the thing, then it makes me question whether or not you're qualified to actually use it. I'd a whole lot rather have a pilot with no gun, than a pilot who THINKS he knows how to handle a gun.

Modern firearms just don't go off by themselves.

Again, make the penalty immediate termination from employment and loss of flight privelages for the person who discharges it and have some sort of penalty for their supervisor and this sorta thing would practically never happen. Guys would know that they better take extra care when handling the gun (and it would probably encourage those who weren't properly trained to take the extra time to get there) and it would also encourage supervisors to check and double check (imagine that concept).

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

The program didn't make this idiot discharge his gun. I don't care if the program makes him load it, unload, dry fire it, holster it, put it in a safe, remove it from a safe....whatever.

PEOPLE discharge firearms, not programs. Just like PEOPLE kill other people with firearms. You can pass all the laws you want. You can alter all the policies and do whatever you like, but it's training the PEOPLE that prevents firearm accidents.

If a person isn't qualified, then maybe they shouldn't oughtta volunteer to carry the damned thing. If you can't even negotiate this "program" without discharging the thing, then it makes me question whether or not you're qualified to actually use it. I'd a whole lot rather have a pilot with no gun, than a pilot who THINKS he knows how to handle a gun.

Modern firearms just don't go off by themselves.

Again, make the penalty immediate termination from employment and loss of flight privelages for the person who discharges it and have some sort of penalty for their supervisor and this sorta thing would practically never happen. Guys would know that they better take extra care when handling the gun (and it would probably encourage those who weren't properly trained to take the extra time to get there) and it would also encourage supervisors to check and double check (imagine that concept).

You seem to feel you know exactly what happened here. I'll sit back and let you explain. I doubt you'll even come close. I have plenty of time, go ahead..........

[AMF]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

You seem to feel you know exactly what happened here. I'll sit back and let you explain. I doubt you'll even come close. I have plenty of time, go ahead..........

Let me first say, I'm a lifetime gun owner and enthusiast. I'm also a prior member of the military.

Having said those things....I don't need to know what happened. If someone else discharged his weapon, then he wasn't properly securing it. If he discharged his weapon, then he wasn't being careful enough. No further details needed.

UNLESS, UNLESS, UNLESS, you can take the weapon to a qualified armorer who can show that it had a mechanical defect or fault that made it malfunction and go off accidentally, then there's ZERO excuse for an accidental discharge. I'm sorry. This is a life and death matter. People (MANY) have died via accidental discharges. He should have been more careful.

If this program you speak of expected him to do something that put him in a position that was beyond his capability as a gun owner, then he should have had the brains to either stop and refuse or give up his rights to carry the thing until it got resolved. Again, this is a life and death matter. You wouldn't do something as a pilot that you knew to be overtly risky or beyond your capabilities just because a policy required it. You'd stop, ask for assistance, ask for retraining, ask for clarification, WHATEVER.

There are no excuses for YOUR weapon accidentally discharging....unless you have a mechanically defective gun/weapon (even in which case you still bare some of the culpability simply because you should be doing functions checks on the thing periodically.....after you clean it, which is often). And I could also see it happening if he was in some sort of conlict, strife or mortal danger....as in...he slipped on the jetway and he's hanging from the side of the aircraft and the gun falls or he's wrestling a rogue polar bear that's gotten loose in the airport and it goes off, or he's actually defending himself and the aircraft from a terrorist and it discharges.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by AMF

Let me first say, I'm a lifetime gun owner and enthusiast. I'm also a prior member of the military.

Having said those things....I don't need to know what happened. If someone else discharged his weapon, then he wasn't properly securing it. If he discharged his weapon, then he wasn't being careful enough. No further details needed.

UNLESS, UNLESS, UNLESS, you can take the weapon to a qualified armorer who can show that it had a mechanical defect or fault that made it malfunction and go off accidentally, then there's ZERO excuse for an accidental discharge. I'm sorry. This is a life and death matter. People (MANY) have died via accidental discharges. He should have been more careful.

If this program you speak of expected him to do something that put him in a position that was beyond his capability as a gun owner, then he should have had the brains to either stop and refuse or give up his rights to carry the thing until it got resolved. Again, this is a life and death matter. You wouldn't do something as a pilot that you knew to be overtly risky or beyond your capabilities just because a policy required it. You'd stop, ask for assistance, ask for retraining, ask for clarification, WHATEVER.

There are no excuses for YOUR weapon accidentally discharging....unless you have a mechanically defective gun/weapon (even in which case you still bare some of the culpability simply because you should be doing functions checks on the thing periodically.....after you clean it, which is often). And I could also see it happening if he was in some sort of conlict, strife or mortal danger....as in...he slipped on the jetway and he's hanging from the side of the aircraft and the gun falls or he's wrestling a rogue polar bear that's gotten loose in the airport and it goes off, or he's actually defending himself and the aircraft from a terrorist and it discharges.

You have no clue as to the weapon involved, more importantly the holster, the locking mechanism, and it's predication for accidental firing due to it's horrendous design. As I said previously, you know nothing of the situation. You're pretty darned judgmental for a guy that has zero knowledge of the situation. I'm done with this - go ahead, have your say. I'm done. I think the others on here know who knows what's going on in this very unique situation and who hasn't a clue.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

You have no clue as to the weapon involved, more importantly the holster, the locking mechanism, and it's predication for accidental firing due to it's horrendous design. As I said previously, you know nothing of the situation. You're pretty darned judgmental for a guy that has zero knowledge of the situation. I'm done with this - go ahead, have your say. I'm done. I think the others on here know who knows what's going on in this very unique situation and who hasn't a clue.

1) Why don't you enlighten us all on this crazy situation you keep writing about.

2) The gun isn't "special" at all. first because it has to be approved by the department of Homeland defense (that way in the event of a conflict/incident, other defense agents can pick it up and use it during contingent situations).

3) It's his gun. He picked the damned thing. If he didn't, he should have been carrying/using it in the first place. If he did, he has no excuses, it's his gun.

4) There are a WHOLE LOT of other pilots who've seemed to be able to negotiate this unfair system for a long time. What's their deal? Are they just smarter? More responsible?

I guess you'll say they're just lucky

It's attitudes like yours that give us dumb laws that punish all the people who are doing the right thing. If an idiot can't handle a firearm responsibly, he shouldn't handle it at all. No need to come up with MORE regulations and more stupid stuff. Locking mechanisms, and holsters, and loading and unloading and ammo....NONE of those things are valid excuses for unintentionally discharging your firearm.

5) Did he register any complaints about this unfair setup? I could even stomach your argument if he had complained that it was unsafe and he wasn't able to do it safely (still at which point it was his DUTY to either seek more training or not continue handling the gun)

[meat]

Originally Posted by AMF

2) The gun isn't "special" at all. first because it has to be approved by the department of Homeland defense (that way in the event of a conflict/incident, other defense agents can pick it up and use it during contingent situations).

3) It's his gun. He picked the damned thing. If he didn't, he should have been carrying/using it in the first place. If he did, he has no excuses, it's his gun.

I'm not necessarily sure that either of those statements are true. From what I remember about the program - years ago - the weapon was initially a S&W .40, and was changed to a H&K USP40 through the TSA.

Originally Posted by AMF

4) There are a WHOLE LOT of other pilots who've seemed to be able to negotiate this unfair system for a long time. What's their deal? Are they just smarter? More responsible?

If this is the FFDO program, its not just 'pilots' who who are members of the program.

Originally Posted by AMF

It's attitudes like yours that give us dumb laws that punish all the people who are doing the right thing.

Actually, it's attitudes like YOURS that get 'dumb laws' passed. The people in charge point at YOU and ask the non-gun public "is that the kind of person you want carrying a weapon?" And the answer is always "no."

Your pal,
Meat.