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Old 04-17-2008, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by WillB View Post
Just another example of why revolvers are better than automatics when it comes to self-defense (unless of course 5 shots isn't enough at least 51% of the time).
False statement.All that matters is training.
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:50 PM
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767-i was going to ask about the holster design but the video just dropped my jaw.That holster takes stupidity to a whole new level.A Tucson cop dies as a result of a bad holster design.



So the idea of a lockbox in the cockpit never occured to these genius'?
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Old 04-18-2008, 06:24 AM
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767-i was going to ask about the holster design but the video just dropped my jaw.That holster takes stupidity to a whole new level.A Tucson cop dies as a result of a bad holster design.



So the idea of a lockbox in the cockpit never occured to these genius'?
Bill,
The holster replaced lockboxes. They were heavy and bulky. Sorry to be so vague - there just isn't a whole lot I am permitted to say. You're all smart guys - you can clearly see what's going on here.
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Old 04-20-2008, 08:42 AM
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Bill,
The holster replaced lockboxes. They were heavy and bulky. Sorry to be so vague - there just isn't a whole lot I am permitted to say. You're all smart guys - you can clearly see what's going on here.

6-7,are you saying that they USED to have lock-boxes,but were not bolted to the aircraft structure?
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Old 04-20-2008, 09:37 AM
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Exactly - The lock boxes were hauled around by the pilots. Convenient, huh?
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Old 04-20-2008, 09:43 AM
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Perhaps this published article will explain a bit more than I am allowed to say:

From the Charlotte Observer:

http://www.charlotte.com/409/story/588670.html

Bureaucrats + guns = BANG!

Officials who don't want pilots to have guns created a safety hazard

The author of this commentary asked to be anonymous to avoid running afoul of the Transportation Security Administration. We thought the topic was of sufficient interest to grant an exemption from our policy requiring authors to be identified. -- Editors, The Observer
As a Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO), firearms instructor, and advocate of the "Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act," I'll describe how politics made it inevitable a pilot would eventually blow a hole in his airplane.
At the risk of broaching what the Transportation Security Administration calls "Sensitive Security Information," understand the TSA's first director, John Magaw, balked at arming pilots, adopting the program only when enacted by Congress.
Forced to administer something they opposed, bureaucrats hamstrung it by requiring pilots to transport firearms in lock boxes weighing 10-plus pounds in idiotic little bags. Just because pilots safeguard the lives of millions, after all, doesn't mean they can be trusted with guns.
Add requirements that applicants not only be unpaid, but also use vacations to trek the hinterlands of New Mexico -- three hours from commercial airports -- for required training (at their own expense), and the resulting program neatly discourages participation.
Instructors and Federal Air Marshals (FAMs) who now control the program understand, unlike politicos, the hurdles overcome by pilots who comprise the largest federal law enforcement arm and routinely thank participants.
So how did the bureaucrats set up the accident?
I was thrilled when, after years of complaints, they replaced the lockbox I'd been lugging -- until I saw what replaced it.
Ignoring FAM recommendations to keep guns on belts, their brainstorming produced a 1950s-vintage thumb-snap holster with a hole through the trigger guard to accommodate a padlock. When leaving cockpits, FFDOs remove holstered guns from belts and insert locks.
That sounds fine if you don't know anything about guns. No other law enforcement agency requires such gun handling, especially in turbulence and darkened, cramped cockpits. And although holsters cover a handgun's trigger to prevent accidental discharge, TSA sages elected to put a hole in that cover.
Even that pales beside the stupidity of placing a metal bar against the trigger of a loaded gun. I once made a video wherein I fired a pistol with a trigger lock engaged. As in my video, along comes the pilot who, unaware his shoulder harness has accidentally unsnapped the thumb-break, removes holster from belt. The gun having slipped slightly out of the holster, he installs the lock, its bar in front of the trigger. Next he shoves it into the bag, and --
BANG!
Beyond this snafu, there's the recurring problem of lost guns. While our masters admonish us not to leave them lying around, it apparently eludes them that the best way to avoid losing something is to keep it attached to your body.
The solution is simple: As with other law enforcement agencies, guns should stay on belts at all times. FFDOs should receive weapons retention training and use snatch-resistant retention holsters.
Doubtless, bureaucrats will take years debating this, if they get the chance: U.S. Rep. Shirley Jackson Lee, D-Texas, chair of the Homeland Security transportation subcommittee, is already foaming at the mouth to terminate the program.
So as pilots defend against terrorists plotting to use aircraft as weapons of mass destruction, politicians and bureaucrats plot to deny you that defense.
For The Record offers commentaries from various sources. The views are the writer's, and not necessarily those of the Observer editorial board.
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:50 AM
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I don't deny that the above article shows the stupidity of government bureacracy surrounding the issue.

But the whole thing again, goes to show you what happens when you have NOVICES operating firearms.

I carry (concealed) a lot. I never carry with a round in the chamber. The tactical disadvantages are minor and the safety advantages are substantial.

There's a cocept called graduated posture (and graduated response). That's where you might keep a shotgun in your bedroom, but if you keep the bedroom door shut and locked while you sleep, there's really no need to keep the gun ready to go at a moment's notice. The time it takes to pump a round (or chamber with an auto) is so small that given the likelihood that you're going to have the additional split second required to do so....it only makes sense.

The same is true or those who carry concealed for self defense. It takes an extra split second to rack a round (when carrying an auto) and given that you're not carrying on your hip or at the ready, it's going to take you a relatively extended amount of time to draw your firearm.

That's why you see LE use graduated posture.......whether it's approaching a traffic stop or confronting a suspect or whatever. Cops don't walk around with their hands on their weapon at all times....it doesn't make sense. They do it when an altercation is more probable or likely.

I would think that if you carried an auto (as a pilot) that it wouldn't be a huge reduction in readiness to NOT chamber a round. (it's not a large reduction in capacity for most calibers either). This all but eliminates the trigger lock issue presented.

Obviously if you're carrying a revolver, it becomes a different equation. But then again, if your revolver isn't cocked, then it takes not only a large amount of trigger travel, but a large amount of trigger force to fire the gun in double action mode.

Furthermore, if someone forced me to keep my pistol in a holster with a trigger guard, I don't know that I would keep a round in the chamber, regardless of revolver/auto. That's just common sense. (or a good understanding firearms).

That's not to say that I defend or agree with the policies set forth by the government. I think it's dumb and it does increase the probability for accidents. I'm just a larger fan of personal responsibility when it comes to owning and handling ANY weapon (whether it's a knife, or pepper spray, or a taser, or a gun). If the gun goes off, it's the owner's actions that caused it to do so. No excuses.

Last edited by AMF; 04-20-2008 at 10:53 AM..
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