What's in These Rice Burners?

[Philip Messer]

A small Toyota pulled up beside my Cobra over the weekend, and when the light turned green he put the petal to the floor. At a car length ahead of me, I decided to participate in the action. It took unitl third gear for me to pull ahead that little rice burner. I drive a BDR with a 351 stroker Ford Racing Windsor (392 ci), 5 speed Tremec tranny and the standard BF Goodrich tires. I must admit, the tires are not much help in the first two gears when it comes to traction. But what in the word are these guys doing to these litte rice burners to even be in the race?

[392cobra]

I don't know what that one had.

I have a Subaru WRX STi as my daily driver.It turns mid-12's in the 1/4 mile and has a top end of over 160 mph.
There are a lot of Cobras that will eat it thru the 1/4,my Cobra will.But it will also eat a lot of Cobras too.

It will sure out handle the vast majority of Cobras,mine included.

It has 4 cylinders and a turbo from the factory.

[Philip Messer]

I guess I have a good bit to learn about these Southeast Asia vehicles. Your Subaru sounds like a blast to drive!

About my traction issue that I mentioned in my thread. I get the feeling from most posted threads that 25 psi is about the optimum pressure for the BF Goodrich tires (15-inch). I currently have 25 psi in my tires and they do a lot of spinning. I have run the back tires at 20 and I get a bit better traction, but still a lot of HP going up in smoke at the expense of acceleration. I guess a tire change is in order to improve traction. Comments?

[392cobra]

Just a wild guess.... Radial T/A's ??

Lots of folks looking for excellant straight line grip go for the Drag Radials.

[GlynMeek]

LOL on the Subaru being a blast to drive! INDEED it is, with that size and acceleration, but let us contemplate the 'soul content' of a Subaru when compared to a Cobra!!!!

I think we'd all be hard pressed to find ANYONE here who would swap a 'slower' Cobra for a 'faster' ricer...

A ricer is still a ricer!

Glyn

[427sharpe]

But, SOME of the ricers....
I do some local drag racing every now and then and quite a few of the ricers show. You have the flash and crash guys (like Corvette and BMW drivers ) and you have some guys that are in to the cars and really work their tails off to put on a good race. I actually have a lot of fun hanging out with them, shooting the breeze about cars,etc.. It is nice to see a conglomeration after the races at the local joint with everything from Billet Boyd's to rat roadsters and Civics to Cobras, just having a good time and enjoying the cars. Lotta good kids out there.

[Excaliber]

The typical (for these days) 5 speed twisting Goodrich TA's is pretty much a recipe for 'tire smoke'. Heck you don't even need a good motor, a stock 302 is more than sufficient to roast em and toast em. 1st gear, in almost all of the 5 speeds is ultra low, now back that up with a typical rear gear ratio of say 3.3 to 3.5 and 1st gear is virtually useless for good acelleration.

What to do? Goodyear "Bill Boards" are the most popular, not neccessarily the best, but darn hard to beat all around! You NEED the best traction you can get, to save your butt from a spin out on a slightly curved 'on ramp' when you shift into second, give it just a 'little gas' and WHOOPS! There she goes, and it happens that fast!

For anyone BUILDING or SPECING their car I ALWAYS recommend looking closely at that 1st gear ratio and 5th gear ratio to get it right. Of course, you got what you got now, so next best thing is the best tires money can buy. And you will STILL send them up in smoke!

[fsstnotch]

The toyota... likely a 75 or 100 shot of NAAAWWS.

But there are quite a few true tuners out there that do ALOT to these little 4 bangers. I know this guy, he has a saturn s-series sedan that would blow your mind! And HE has done all the work! He even opened up his own fabrication shop after a while. Made his own cams and intake manifolds, and fabricated his own turbo kit. Last I knew, his car was putting down like 400+ to the wheels! I have a video of him racing a 200x SLP camaro SS on the highway. The camaro would get maybe a fender on him at eh start and then he would just run away! Usually the camaro would let off after he was 6 or 7 car lengths ahead. And for that he was boosting like 13psi. On the dyno he boosts over 20psi, but is isn't really driveable at that point. it would roast the tires through 4 of 5 gears! Here's some pics

http://www.qksltwo.com/users/sfwd/sf...ery/index.html

http://www.qksltwo.com/users/sfwd/su...ery/index.html

[meat]

Originally Posted by Philip Messer

A small Toyota pulled up beside my Cobra over the weekend, and when the light turned green he put the petal to the floor. At a car length ahead of me, I decided to participate in the action. It took unitl third gear for me to pull ahead that little rice burner. I drive a BDR with a 351 stroker Ford Racing Windsor (392 ci), 5 speed Tremec tranny and the standard BF Goodrich tires. I must admit, the tires are not much help in the first two gears when it comes to traction. But what in the word are these guys doing to these litte rice burners to even be in the race?

I had a cute little Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine that could beat most cars out there - Cobras included. It was wrapped in a little Lotus Elise body.

Your pal,
Meat.

[SPF2245]

Now with the 2009 Nissan GT-R coming out, you can get factory rice that will eat us alive (Motortrend just dyno'd one and it turned over 500hp to the tires...from the factory, 0-60 in 3.2 seconds!!!).

I will say, no matter what they do to make them go...they just don't sound as good as big 'ol American cubes running through sidepipes.

[AMF]

Ricers can be made to go fast too, it just takes more money.

Pound or pound, dollar for dollar there are only a couple of ricer cars out there that can stand up to the big boys. The supra is one and the EVO is another. The STI can be made to scoot, but it's a highway pig as it has tons of parasitic loss from the drive train (the EVO is all wheel drive too, but for some reason, guys are making crazy horsepower with them).

Look out for even moderately built supras. They're virtually impossible to beat on the highway and if you run into a highly modified supra, you can forget about it. I've seen high end supras beat turbo'd busa bikes. You'd think there's no way in hell that a car would outrun a turbo'd bike, but it happens.

The supra is quite possibly the most overengineered production car ever made. There are guys running 1000 hp on stock blocks and transmissions. Supras aren't the best from a stop but are nasty from a roll and downright unbeatable on the highway (at upper speeds).

Some of the really low end rice burners CAN be made to get up, but it takes a ton of money (which is why I don't understand why they would do it, plus....who the hell wants to dump $60k into a Honda Accord?......dumb in my opinion...but hey, if that's what blows your skirt up...so be it.)

[Joe Wicked]

The true tuners and the true builders I respect. The ones that get me are the ones who put nos and a fart cannon on a stock civic and then think they are king ding-a-ling. I know one guy who has a 92 civic that is fast. It was not about the money, he did it because he was tired of everyone saying it could not be done. He wanted to prove it could be. The same guy has a 2000 Camaro SS as a daily driver and a 34 Chevy hot rod that he is building. He had the money to spend on it, and what he proved is the end result (when buying a used late model car) is the cost is really close to the same. The car was cheap, but cost more to get the same result as a more expensive car that costs less to go fast. In the end he spent about 55K. A 3-4 year old Mustang GT would cost about the same to go just as fast.

[427sharpe]

And there is the rub....disposable cash for a drop investment. It has always been true that the $ winds up the same, but the guy with the limited resources buys cheap and has to invest over time because there is no other way...other than....waiting and saving!
To each their own. I still like a lot of the younger guys who do their own work and still tend to avoid the ones that spend Daddy's money to buy off the shelf. It sure is fun to watch a crappy looking little Civic run all over a nice new and shiny BMW. The looks on the faces--both--are priceless.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

The true tuners and the true builders I respect. The ones that get me are the ones who put nos and a fart cannon on a stock civic and then think they are king ding-a-ling. I know one guy who has a 92 civic that is fast. It was not about the money, he did it because he was tired of everyone saying it could not be done. He wanted to prove it could be. The same guy has a 2000 Camaro SS as a daily driver and a 34 Chevy hot rod that he is building. He had the money to spend on it, and what he proved is the end result (when buying a used late model car) is the cost is really close to the same. The car was cheap, but cost more to get the same result as a more expensive car that costs less to go fast. In the end he spent about 55K. A 3-4 year old Mustang GT would cost about the same to go just as fast.

Give me $55k budget and I'll build a late model mustang that will run 8's (reliably). (or any late model muscle car)

You dump $55k into a rice burner and you'd be lucky to run into the 10's. Unless you just totally gut the thing and dump a new (larger) engine and transmission setup into it.

Any car can be made to go fast. Some just take more money than others.

I agree with you, that the number of guys out there with a fart can and some unpainted body kit are more than you could count. There are a FEW Honda and Mitsu and Toyota guys out there with really fast cars. There are THOUSANDS of hot rod guys out there with scorchers....mustangs, camaros, vettes, ....etc.

You can buy a notch mustang, throw $10k into (for a total of $15k) and run 10's all day long, twice on Sunday.

If straight line isn't your thing, you can still build a pretty quick road race car too, (although the weight and distribution becomes a serious issue).

I respect the dedication and the over the top nature of extreme modding, it just makes you shake your head when you think of what that money and effort could do with a better starting platform. To each his own though, some guys like V-8's.....some guys like their car to sound like a leaf blower

[427sharpe]

There are a FEW Honda and Mitsu and Toyota guys out there with really fast cars. There are THOUSANDS of hot rod guys out there with scorchers....mustangs, camaros, vettes, ....etc.

Few?? I attended the last imports races at Texas Motorplex and there were a whole bunch more than a few!
And they were running some serious numbers.
Also seems at the races I participate in I see a lot of unpainted clapped together American stuff, too for some reason.

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by AMF

Give me $55k budget and I'll build a late model mustang that will run 8's (reliably). (or any late model muscle car)

You dump $55k into a rice burner and you'd be lucky to run into the 10's. Unless you just totally gut the thing and dump a new (larger) engine and transmission setup into it.

Any car can be made to go fast. Some just take more money than others.

I agree with you, that the number of guys out there with a fart can and some unpainted body kit are more than you could count. There are a FEW Honda and Mitsu and Toyota guys out there with really fast cars. There are THOUSANDS of hot rod guys out there with scorchers....mustangs, camaros, vettes, ....etc.

You can buy a notch mustang, throw $10k into (for a total of $15k) and run 10's all day long, twice on Sunday.

If straight line isn't your thing, you can still build a pretty quick road race car too, (although the weight and distribution becomes a serious issue).

I respect the dedication and the over the top nature of extreme modding, it just makes you shake your head when you think of what that money and effort could do with a better starting platform. To each his own though, some guys like V-8's.....some guys like their car to sound like a leaf blower

I guess I should have clarified that he built it in 95, and is still running it. When you look at the cost of building an 05 or newer Mustang vs an 05 or newer Civic, you spend really close to the same money in the end. If you go to older cars, the Mustangs get to be much cheaper to do the same thing is the point I was trying to make.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the 4 bangers. I tell him on a regular basis that it is still just a civic, and I would rather drive my slow Mustang than be seen in the passenger seat of the Civic just to talk smack . Now he did remove the stock drivetrain and build something else as you stated, but the budget was right around 55K. He runs low to mid 9s regularly and has gotten a couple of passes in the 8s, but the stars need to be aligned just right for those runs. The best part about the car is that it looks completely stock, but has a roll cage. Most people assume he is the classic ricer with a stock civic, roll cage, and fart cannon.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

I guess I should have clarified that he built it in 95, and is still running it. When you look at the cost of building an 05 or newer Mustang vs an 05 or newer Civic, you spend really close to the same money in the end. If you go to older cars, the Mustangs get to be much cheaper to do the same thing is the point I was trying to make.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the 4 bangers. I tell him on a regular basis that it is still just a civic, and I would rather drive my slow Mustang than be seen in the passenger seat of the Civic just to talk smack . Now he did remove the stock drivetrain and build something else as you stated, but the budget was right around 55K. He runs low to mid 9s regularly and has gotten a couple of passes in the 8s, but the stars need to be aligned just right for those runs. The best part about the car is that it looks completely stock, but has a roll cage. Most people assume he is the classic ricer with a stock civic, roll cage, and fart cannon.

Ricer or not, if he's dipping into the 8's, he's hauling the mail. Much respect for any car running those kinda numbers.

You can pick up an 05+ V6 for $15k. (maybe less, but I tried to find one to build and couldn't find one in the right color for less than that).

You can buy an engine capable of handling 1200hp for $12k. (That's stroked and bored, aluminum block, billet everything, 324 cubic inches of modular sexiness, with ported/polished heads, valve train and stage III cams).

You can then pickup a PA performance supercomp with trans brake and reverse manual valve body, twin coolers, oil lines, guage, shifter, cable, bellhousing, converter and drive shaft for $5k.

You can then dump a $2k fuel system into it (return style).

$5k for a decent 9" rear end with axles, detroit locker, center section, ring and pinion, etc.

Another $1500 for rear suspension. Add $1500 for front suspension.

Add $1500 for a good 10 or 12 point chrom-moly roll cage.

Add $8k for a GREAT twin turbo setup (with tuning) from a reputable shop (including intercooler, premium wastegates, blow off valves, piping, turbos, etc).

That leaves $4500 in the budget for stuff like exhaust, seats, harnesses, battery boxes, sub frame connectors, tac's, boost guages, drive shaft loops, wheels and tires, nomex suits.......and any wrench time that you wanna pay a shop to perform.

There's probably a decent amount of fat in some of those numbers....but $55k is an EASY budget to put together a modern muscle car screamer.

Build out for an older muscle car (like a notchback) is MUCH easier and cheaper on the engine side.

I've seen a couple of ricer build outs that involved V-8 power, and those were pretty badass, but were custom, one-off type stuff.

Getting a lil ol 1.8 liter V TEC to put out serious horsepower USUALLY involves copious amounts of boost and N2O. That's why it's usually more expensive because you're building an engine that has to rev incredibly high and be able to withstand 30+ psi of boost.

A V-8 engine can rev to 7k, with 20 psi and put out more power than you could ever hold under the wheels with a stock style suspension.

I dig some of the wild customization type stuff ricers do....I just don't understand why you start with a grocery getter as a platform.

To me, there's nothing sexy about a 10 second accord. I guess there's a sleeper appeal.....but beyond that....it's like putting lipstick on a pig.

I always wanted to build up one of those MINI mini-vans (the Dhatsu/Hundai type) and slap a mid engine into the cargo van part and slap some fatty meats on the back. Talk about the ultimate sleeper

[PatBuckley]

Originally Posted by AMF

Ricers can be made to go fast too, it just takes more money.

Pound or pound, dollar for dollar there are only a couple of ricer cars out there that can stand up to the big boys. The supra is one and the EVO is another. The STI can be made to scoot, but it's a highway pig as it has tons of parasitic loss from the drive train (the EVO is all wheel drive too, but for some reason, guys are making crazy horsepower with them).
Look out for even moderately built supras. They're virtually impossible to beat on the highway and if you run into a highly modified supra, you can forget about it. I've seen high end supras beat turbo'd busa bikes. You'd think there's no way in hell that a car would outrun a turbo'd bike, but it happens.

The supra is quite possibly the most overengineered production car ever made. There are guys running 1000 hp on stock blocks and transmissions. Supras aren't the best from a stop but are nasty from a roll and downright unbeatable on the highway (at upper speeds).

Some of the really low end rice burners CAN be made to get up, but it takes a ton of money (which is why I don't understand why they would do it, plus....who the hell wants to dump $60k into a Honda Accord?......dumb in my opinion...but hey, if that's what blows your skirt up...so be it.)

Care to elaborate on why the STi has tons of parasitic losses as compared to the very similar EVO?

Or are you just talking out of your ass again?

[AMF]

Originally Posted by PatBuckley

Care to elaborate on why the STi has tons of parasitic losses as compared to the very similar EVO?

Or are you just talking out of your ass again?

They both have huge drive train loss. For whatever reason, I've seen some really over the top EVO's running massive power to overcome that. I haven't seen any over the top STIs (not saying they're aren't any, but I've seen a FEW EVOs)

Both are monsters out of the hole....I have yet to see an STI running 900hp to the wheels.

You can afford to have 40% drivetrain loss when you're running 900 ponies to the wheels. You can't afford 40% drivetrain if you're only running 400 horsepower (not against modified street cars on the highway at least).

No talking out of my ass. Just seen more over the top EVO's is all. Not disrespecting your car. I like STI's, I actually considered buying one...they pull hard in a number of respects (launches, braking, turns), but again, the achilles heel is at higher speeds, they tend to get eaten up by cars that are more efficient. That's all.

Relax.

[PatBuckley]

Originally Posted by AMF

They both have huge drive train loss. For whatever reason, I've seen some really over the top EVO's running massive power to overcome that. I haven't seen any over the top STIs (not saying they're aren't any, but I've seen a FEW EVOs)

Both are monsters out of the hole....I have yet to see an STI running 900hp to the wheels.

You can afford to have 40% drivetrain loss when you're running 900 ponies to the wheels. You can't afford 40% drivetrain if you're only running 400 horsepower (not against modified street cars on the highway at least).

No talking out of my ass. Just seen more over the top EVO's is all. Not disrespecting your car. I like STI's, I actually considered buying one...they pull hard in a number of respects (launches, braking, turns), but again, the achilles heel is at higher speeds, they tend to get eaten up by cars that are more efficient. That's all.

Relax.

So you say you haven't seen any STI's, and that they both have huge drivetrain loss.....nevermind.

900 hp at the wheels, huh? Street car?

Just think how fast the STI would be (155 top end stock) if it didn't have those HUGE drivetrain losses....

Actually I am pretty relaxed, you just don't know me, which is OK with me....