Saddam's WMD Found & Removed

[VRM]

Oh, and Brittney Spears = Eye Rack! (insert salacious smilie here!)

[427 S/O]

vrm, you just can't get it right, you persist in continually making up false statements to fit the thread. I'll re post for YOU and other members who don't know your false tendancies...

Quote Perry: Like I told you guys, vrm kinda makes stuff up as he goes along. He conveniently forgets our mustard gas, manufactured and stored since WWII, and destroyed under enormous environmental strict standards.....because it was jello!!! ( as vrm states).......Not hardly...

[MChat]

Originally Posted by VRM

Something could have been transported out, but if we had any sort of legitimate suspicion/evidence that had happened then shouldn't we have invaded Syria or Jordan?

Doing that would require opening a huge can of worms. Syria/Jordan are in effect just puppet kingdoms of Iran. Mess with Syria/Jordan and you have to mess with Iran. And Iran is really friendly with Russia; so much so that Russia has said an attack on Iran would be considered an attack on Russia.

The bottom line is Afghanistan and Iraq were kind of "outsiders" in the whole middle east. The Fundamentalist Islamics (Taliban) in control of Afghanistan are an embarassement to the more "moderate" Islamic countries. And Saddam wasn't well liked because of his brutality toward his own countrymen, and his constant warring with surrounding countries, among other things.

Islamic politics are a very odd. They all have varying degrees of dislike for the "West." They all have a certain amount of dislike for one another. But they all share an equal hatred for Israel; the only thing they can't seem to agree on concerning Israel is who is going to get to destroy Israel.

[wtm442]

Originally Posted by VRM

However, those WMD would have expired after a small handful of years and become useless.
Steve

Useless? I would not want to bet my life on someones opinion that a WMD is useless after some period of time.

[UKCobra]

The ultimate source of all truth - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377443,00.html

[NeoConMan]

Hmmm....
Hey UKCobra,
What's a few tons of yellowcake between sworn enemies?
The stuff itself is not that dangerous, but could cause a helluva scare.
Once the refining process gets going, it's a different story.




Steve, I gotta bring a couple things you mentioned back for discussion.

Originally Posted by VRM

The UN had teams in Iraq with unrestricted access just before our invasion.

Wrong.
Hans Blix was given the Trick or Treat schtick the whole time he was there.
I watched this with unwavering attention as it ALL unfolded - on CNN.
Along with all three network newscasts and the odd Nightline special, there was plenty of coverage of the Keystone Kops charade Saddam put the UN through.
They would sit at a palace, awaiting the entry Saddam had already promised them.
Meanwhile, Saddam ALWAYS knew exactly where ALL of the UN weapons inspectors were so he could maneuver his goodies unhindered.

Disagree with me all you want, but this is the cold, hard truth.

Originally Posted by VRM

They found nothing of any real importance (empty rocket tubes), nor did they find anything indicating that there had been any recent WMD development, and the ISG report bears this out.

That Independent Study Group report that the Liberal Left loves to parade around was assembled by a couple of lifelong bureaucrats with a decidedly anti-Bush agenda.
Think of Plame and Wilson, you have an idea of the mindset.
Lotsa people at the alphabet agencies had their jobs long before Bush was elected, and can ply their trade with their own spin applied - safe from political scrutiny.

The ISG is as good as toilet paper, the sole piece of "gotcha evidence" that can be used against Bush policies and decisions with an aire of validity.
It's a sham.

Originally Posted by VRM

Something could have been transported out, but if we had any sort of legitimate suspicion/evidence that had happened then shouldn't we have invaded Syria or Jordan?

No, we should have nuked them.


I'm kidding, but only a little.


Would you be so bold to proclaim we had no sort of legitimate suspicion/evidence that Syria or Jordan has ever acted against our interests?

Pick any decade since Israel was founded, I can give you a list longer than my arm.

Remember how quickly Pelosi hopped on a plane and flew to Damascus against the wishes of the White House? What was the urgency for her to meet with Assad?

She should have been charged with sedition, if not tried for treason.

[Ron61]

Steve,

Ron,
There is other evidence as well, but very few people on this forum seem interested in reading it - I have posted it before. Some comes from the UN team sent in before the war, some comes from our own government reports.
There is plenty from the ISG that cites some of these reports, and if somebody wants to slog through it it can be very educational.
However, despite the majority of evidence indicating that Hussein had nothing that would constitute WMD, there is still no way to prove that he did not as you cannot prove a negative.

I am not arguing with you but I have read so much evidence from so many absolutely reliable sources that completely contradicts what each is saying that I am sceptical of any of them reporting the complete truth. I agree that I haven't seen any evidence of WOMDs discovered since we invaded, but given the warning he had and all of the stuff Syria now has, I still believe he shipped a lot of it to them. However I can't prove that and reading a dozen or so absolutely factual reports to me is a useless waste of time. Search long enough and you can find some factual report saying about anything you want. From now on I believe maybe 1/4th of what I read in the reports, less than that in the news media, about 1/3rd of what I hear from reliable sources, and very little of what I see as I figure that can be faked also.

Ron

[NeoConMan]

As a young 'un my Daddy told me;

Don't believe nuthin you hear, and only half of what you see.

After all these years of seeing how the media is jerked back and forth in all the European countries, and used simply as a propaganda machine in the Latin & South American world, I'm amazed that we no longer differ.

The First Amendment has been perverted and sh!t upon by the press, it's not even worth mentioning.

Free press to push an agenda, decrying censorship all the way.
When the events turn, quash it, deny it, discredit it, and hide it.

Yeah, objectivity now resides with the Easter Bunny.



There's no more news, everybody simply goes to their propaganda outlet of choice to get another fix of the same old sh!t.

[nevermind65]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Steve,

Ron,
There is other evidence as well, but very few people on this forum seem interested in reading it - I have posted it before. Some comes from the UN team sent in before the war, some comes from our own government reports.
There is plenty from the ISG that cites some of these reports, and if somebody wants to slog through it it can be very educational.
However, despite the majority of evidence indicating that Hussein had nothing that would constitute WMD, there is still no way to prove that he did not as you cannot prove a negative.

I am not arguing with you but I have read so much evidence from so many absolutely reliable sources that completely contradicts what each is saying that I am sceptical of any of them reporting the complete truth. I agree that I haven't seen any evidence of WOMDs discovered since we invaded, but given the warning he had and all of the stuff Syria now has, I still believe he shipped a lot of it to them. However I can't prove that and reading a dozen or so absolutely factual reports to me is a useless waste of time. Search long enough and you can find some factual report saying about anything you want. From now on I believe maybe 1/4th of what I read in the reports, less than that in the news media, about 1/3rd of what I hear from reliable sources, and very little of what I see as I figure that can be faked also.

Ron

There was a lot of evidence before the war...most of it from people that hated Saddam and wanted him gone. Certain elements in our government took these words as absolutes and used them in justifying our invasion, It was convenient and easy. When reality set in years later, we found much of what these informants said to be half-truths. Nothing was found. Week after week we heard wild-eyed stories of new finds only to find that they were not verified and later turned out to be nothing.

It is obvious Saddam had WMD at one time, but the question remains; Did he have them when we invaded? No. And from the condition of the building and holding sites where the WMD were claimed to have been hidden, nothing had been there for years.

The whole thing was a farce. From Rumsfeld telling us he knew exactly where they were hidden down to the utterly ridiculously small amounts of money Bush told us it was going to take invade Iraq and run the country.

The sooner some of you take off your tinfoil hats, the better off we will all be. Wild-eyed speculation and conspiracy theories got us into the mess in Iraq, and 5 years later, the same nonsense is still being rehashed.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

because cobrabill said they don't exist, so they must not have ever existed.

You need to be Cobrabill specific as there are TWO posters by that name.

[NeoConMan]

Originally Posted by nevermind65

Certain elements in our government took these words as absolutes and used them in justifying our invasion

Certain elements?
Name ONE Democrat in the House or Senate who did NOT jump on the bandwagon and speak with the utmost conviction of our responsibility, or mission to disarm Saddam the Madman.

Originally Posted by nevermind65

When reality set in years later, we found much of what these informants said to be half-truths.

Ah yes, with the help of conspiracy-loving internet sleuths the world over, the Democrats suddenly became wise?

Originally Posted by nevermind65

Nothing was found. Week after week we heard wild-eyed stories of new finds only to find that they were not verified and later turned out to be nothing.

Nothing?
Try again.
All those thousands of Kurds died of the flu?
During the Iran/Iraq war we were selling them party favors?

Originally Posted by nevermind65

The sooner some of you take off your tinfoil hats, the better off we will all be. Wild-eyed speculation and conspiracy theories got us into the mess in Iraq, and 5 years later, the same nonsense is still being rehashed.

Who's wearing the tin-foil hat, exactly?
What behavior or claims defying all facts or logic make somebody a tin foil hat guy?

The MoveOn/DailyKos/CNN/MSNBC crowd has that distinction locked up.

[nevermind65]

Originally Posted by NeoConMan

Certain elements?
Name ONE Democrat in the House or Senate who did NOT jump on the bandwagon and speak with the utmost conviction of our responsibility, or mission to disarm Saddam the Madman.




Ah yes, with the help of conspiracy-loving internet sleuths the world over, the Democrats suddenly became wise?




Nothing?
Try again.
All those thousands of Kurds died of the flu?
During the Iran/Iraq war we were selling them party favors?




Who's wearing the tin-foil hat, exactly?
What behavior or claims defying all facts or logic make somebody a tin foil hat guy?

The MoveOn/DailyKos/CNN/MSNBC crowd has that distinction locked up.

As per a typical conservative, one with a differing view is automatically deemed a "liberal". LOL..let partisan hackery thrive in the forum again!

You need to get your time line straightened out a bit. Mixing the killing of thousands of Kurds years earlier and the invasion are not even close. In case you forgot, we had been through 2-3 Presidents since the original gassing, and it was ancient history by 2003. Hell, even Bush didn't use that as an excuse.

As for being an internet sleuth, seems as though that's what most of the information posted on here was derived. Nothing of consequence was found that showed Saddam had renewed his WMD programs.

[NeoConMan]

Originally Posted by nevermind65

As per a typical conservative, one with a differing view is automatically deemed a "liberal".

Real simple here...
Assuming I'm a Conservative would be a safe bet.
Your views differ by your own admission, so Liberal is an easy conclusion.
Sorry if I'm wrong, didn't mean to insult you.

[J. T. Toad]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

You need to be Cobrabill specific as there are TWO posters by that name.

my sincerest apologies... I should have put in a space between the cobra and bill.

[Ron61]

Actually Bill to make sure there are no mistakes just put the Avatar of the one you are talking to in the post.



Ron

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

my sincerest apologies... I should have put in a space between the cobra and bill.

No worries.


Ron-Keep it up and i'll switch back to my old Avatar.

[VRM]

NCM,
Pelosi exceeded the level of her authority, and she should be punished for it. Bush has also exceeded his level of authority (partly because Congress somehow thinks they can change the roles defined in the Constitution without actually changing the Constitution), and he should be punished for it as well. Both Congress (DNC and GOP) and Bush have ignored a lot of what the Constitution says - I'm not particularly happy about that.

There are actually 2 ISGs - both are relevant. One is the Iraq Survey Group and the other is the Iraq Study Group. The Iraq Study Group was a bi-partisan commission run by Baker and Hamilton to offer suggestions to the Administration and Congress to try and fix the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Survey Group was a separate military group reporting directly to Rumsfield that was tasked with hunting WMD. Their report is very interesting; it does state that items could have been shipped outside of the country, but there is no evidence that any items actually were shipped. It does say that Iraq could have re-started weapons production if the sanctions were lifted, but that there was no evidence that any production took place during the time that the sanctions were in place. The rest of their report confirms much of what Ritters and Blix's WMD hunts reported.

I find it very interesting that a lot of people continue to state that Hussein had to have WMD, that it had to have been shipped out, and so on, but that no evidence exists to corroborate that. Is this another example of faith-based policies?

You mention the 'Independent Study Group' with an anti Bush agenda - what exactly is that?

Yellowcake is about as dangerous as the radioactive material in X-Ray machines; which is to say that there is a level of danger, but Iraq could make the same dirty bomb with the yellowcake as with medical imaging equipment (which they do have). Processing it is not an easy thing; Iran is refining, and they have thousands of centrifuges and are at the 3-4% enriched level. You need 30% to make a nuke, but the critical mass needed at that low level of refinement is pretty high. Most nukes are around 75-80% enriched. Iran is a long ways away from being able to build their own nuke. Iraq was even more so.

Oh, and the DNC has not become wise - I doubt they ever will. But the majority of the GOP is right there with them.

Steve

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by VRM

NCM,
I mentioned Ayers because he was listed in a post by Warren as a reason to discredit one of my sources of information.

I agree that Hussein had WMD - he did use them on the Kurds. However, those WMD would have expired after a small handful of years and become useless.
Steve

Well, I am loosely grabbing at facts here, but uranium is slow to expire.

PS: I kind of like NCM's POV and attitude, but seriously, (and I realize there might be a log in my eye on this one), why would anyone come to a car site and create a username like NeoConMan? Just wondering.

Mike

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by bomelia

Well, I am loosely grabbing at facts here, but uranium is slow to expire.

PS: I kind of like NCM's POV and attitude, but seriously, (and I realize there might be a log in my eye on this one), why would anyone come to a car site and create a username like NeoConMan? Just wondering.

Mike

Cuz Cobrabill/cobra bill was taken?

[VRM]

Originally Posted by bomelia

Well, I am loosely grabbing at facts here, but uranium is slow to expire.

Mike

Well, Hussein gave the Kurds yellow mustard, not yellow cake.

Steve