Should the US bailout the big three automakers?

[SPF2245]

Hey Bruce, 2 or 3 million out of work...um, no. Let them fail hard, then go through Chapter 11, clear out the crap, redesign and cut the fat (Yeah, that means no more Crown Vic, Hummer H-whatever, Mercury...and a good number of other wastes of resources). Then, they hire back all those employees who WANT to work, for wages that reflect the amount of work they do (check Honda/Toyota wage models for example). Then, cut some of the 14000 dealers (gee, there are four Ford Dealers, three Chevrolet Dealers and three Dodge dealers in a 10 mile area here...to one Honda and one Toyota dealer). Then give them some money to restart, tell GMAC to get a life (sorry, again bad loans are more of a problem them they want to talk about in public). As for the UAW, I live near a couple UAW plants, took a tour to see a Dodge power plant factory...then went and saw the new Honda plant, let's just say, alot less employees working for less at the Honda, with tighter quality standards, period.

[Jerry Clayton]

I was out to NAPA for a battery and Lowe's for a garbage disposal----I've always been concerned about all the foreign cars on the road, but tonight I was looking at the pick ups and vans-----Seems like most have ladders, welders,etc of some real workers---and rest assured that the people driving them needed there capacity to haul stuff to the job-----I also noticed that there was way too many BMW, Mercedes, Lesus, etc-----

Most of the time I call somewhere for something, it seems like it goes to a call center---India, Manila, etc-----

HP put out a good report today----call them up and see where your call goes---


What has happened to Americans????? People all over the world want to come here and our citizens seem to want to send everything away----Did any of you ever do anything for your country??????

The auto makers will be saved to insure our military might-----and if they aren't , you had better start looking for someplace to hide---

Oh, new industry----bomb shelters

[SPF2245]

Hey John, Honda and Toyota make more here (US of A) then people care to recognize...same with BMW. Guess what, they don't need hand outs because they don't have UAW fat, useless model after useless model (ok, the Honda Ridgeline sucks). They invested in their business and they are making money, even with a 30% drop in sales. As for India, let's face it, that is who we have to beat...you can complain or fight, UAW and the Big 3 want huge money for themselves while the tax payer makes up the difference. I'm done giving money to bad investments, I don't agree with ANYTHING said to continue with the current failure of these guys funded by me or my children. $25B for what, 6 months of the same...what happens then, another $25, then another...all the while what has changed...is the UAW going to re-do contracts (the answer is no), is the BIG 3 going to change their business models...nope not per their words.

[392cobra]

I may be an old fart but certainly not in the least bitter.

You're the one yelling,no one else is.

[sparks]

Not Bitter ,just Tired Off All The Bs...give Bo A Chance,after All He Cant Do Much Worse Than Da Bush's?i Hope.

[sparks]

I aM thInKinG of TaKinG a TypYIng aNd SpeLEnG claS

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by sparks

I aM thInKinG of TaKinG a TypYIng aNd SpeLEnG claS

LOL,.....funny

[Jamo]

...and I surely wished you and Rick Lake would learn what sentences and paragraphs are all about.

Even unions use them.

[sparks]

i tAke tHAt cLaS tWo

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Read a report tonight that says the average UAW big 3 worker makes $81.18 per hour (benefits included), while the average non-union Toyota worker (in the US) makes about $48.00 per hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the Toyota employees average $100,000.00+ a year with overtime pay.......that equates to about $1,000.00 per vehicle........and the UAW is NOT bleeding the big 3 dry?????????

Seems to me paying someone $81 bucks an hour to bolt on wheels or other parts is a "little" high, don't you???????

BTW: I'm a true blue Ford owner/driver...since 1976 my wife and I have owned 11 Ford cars and trucks....none have lasted 100,000 miles, a few lasted a lot less, like 75,000 miles.....on the other hand, my company car is a Toyota,10 years old now and as of today has 403,000+ miles on it......had to change the fan belt and valve cover gasket (at about 225,000 miles) other than routine mantanence....gee, they don't make em like they used to, do they????????????

Lets compare, my wife's present car, a Taurus had to have the catalytic converter replaced, 2 of the 6 fuel injectors replaced and needed new brake rotors (warped) all before it had 30,000 miles on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It rides like a chuck wagon, seats are hard and uncomfortable and two of the four widows squeak when going up or down since brand new, has a lot less room in the front than my Toyota,but she had her heart set on a Taurus, so that's what she got......
My 05 Super Duty Crew Cab F-250 diesel had to have the turbo replaced at 4,200 miles and now at a whopping 27,000 miles has developed a nice little oil leak!!!!!!!!!

Guess what my next vehicle will be?????????????????

David

[sparks]

I cost my employer w/benies around $65hr. NO way in hell a uaw worker costs $81hr. My hourly wage is $39hr. UAW about $25 or so. My benies are rite up there w/ there's.
I know, the exec's get 20% of the 81???????? Dont believe all you read!! Thats another issue in itself.

[venum14]

The bailout is reward to all the CEO's or corporate leaders for running their organization into the ground, and taking every American taxpayer with them. This free meal ticket will open the floodgates for every large company on the verge of bankruptcy, to waste what assets they have remaining.

Can we all get loans and buy multiple Cobras? One for each season would be nice. Can I combine my last two cents with my neighbor's nickel and buy a foreclosure home? Let us get real; we (the taxpayers) are running out of money to give our government to loan out!

My $.02 now down to $.01

[Bobcat]

Sparks .... bitter ? No ... disillusioned , experienced , but like you , also tired of all the BS . However , when I made the comments about the unions , it`s all from first hand experience over the years .
I was involved on a project with a major Railroad to work on a hydraulic hopper car riveter . Riveting the stakes on the sides was a dirty and dangerous job that took 5 people 15 to 17 minutes/side .... riveter , bucker , catcher , pitcher and helper . Done hydraulically , it would be faster and a lot safer .... but the Unions fought us all the way .... and no one was going to be let go .
Another example ... same Railroad ... took three trades and 45 minutes to check the fluid level in a reservoir .... come on .
I also worked on vacuum arc furnaces in the steel industry . Spent a week at Wyman Gordon in Worster , MA on a startup that should have taken two days as I wasn`t allowed to touch anything on the equipment that I designed . I had to stand there and show a Union man everything single thing and pray it was done right .... and this guy made three times my salary ! But what did I know ... I was just a Southern boy .
Did a start up on a Plasma arc torch in Mountain View , CA ... all non union and was out of there in three days after arc strike on the second day . Same thing at another company in Albany , OR on a Titanium furnace except that we spent on day on the river
I remember working with a company that manufactured track maintenance equipment for the RR and seeing a piece of equipment sent to Conrail that showed in the photo about 18 men working it . Only problem was that it was designed to work with 10 to 12 .... but Union rules added the rest .
I have many other first hand examples .... but I`ll also agree that everyone`s hands are dirty . However the time has come to draw a line and stop rewarding poor performance , no matter from who .
A good post from RogerH on the Ford plant in South America ... and even more telling was the comment that the UAW would not allow a plant like that to be built in this Country . Really sad .
I`ve also spent some time in the Japanese auto plants and the big difference I see is that Management and the workers mostly work together and aren`t antagonists .
No offense intended , but maybe that`s why the South is on the way to becoming the new Detroit?

[snakebitekit]

Mr Sparks please remember that there are benefits the employer match's that are not recorded on the pay check.

[jhv48]

Everyone has great ideas and strong opinions. BUT,

HAVE ANY OF YOU TOLD YOUR SENATOR OR CONGRESSMAN HOW YOU FEEL?

Your complaints and concerns amount to a big NOTHING unless you make your concerns known to the people that will ultimately decide the fate of the big 3.

Write, call or email your representatives and tell them how you feel!

[sparks]

:at least they wont have to pay for snow removal.
no matter what, alot will suffer from chity managemant and some lazy workers. They should learn from this instead of blameing everyone else. Like I said , I do see both sides.
Maybe the thread question should read( should the taxpayers LOAN the big3)

[Don]

Note the last two paragraphs:

Source: NY Times.com

November 19, 2008

" Facing a Slowdown, China’s Auto Industry Presses for a Bailout From Beijing "

By KEITH BRADSHER
GUANGZHOU, China — Do Chinese automakers need a bailout?

China’s car industry is quietly pressing Beijing for government help as it copes with a jarring slowdown, top Chinese auto executives said in interviews here on Tuesday.

This autumn, after six years of 20 percent or more annual growth, vehicle sales were flat or slightly negative, a shock to an industry that has borrowed heavily to build ever more factories for a market that had once seemed insatiable.

Citing the $25 billion in loans that Congress has already approved to help American automakers increase green research, and the additional $25 billion in loans the American industry is seeking this week to cope with a hobbled economy, Chinese executives are now telling the government here that they also need emergency measures. They are seeking lower taxes on new cars, lower fuel prices and increased grants for research into hybrid cars and new technology.

“The Chinese government will undoubtedly support us,” said She Cairong, the general manager of JAC Motors, adding that state-owned Chinese banks had already become more willing to lend money to Chinese automakers in recent weeks as bank regulators have eased restrictions on loans to heavy industry.

Still, Mr. She and other industry leaders said that while government officials have voiced concern to them about the industry’s deteriorating condition, Beijing has not committed to any specific help.

“They’re asking the questions but they haven’t said anything yet” on how aid might be structured, said Frank Zhao, vice president and chief technology officer of Geely Automobile Holdings. “We really hope the Chinese government will come and help us.”

Michael Dunne, the managing director for China at J. D. Power, said in a telephone interview from Shanghai that the executives’ remarks here represented a shift in the position of the Chinese auto industry.

“This is the first I’ve heard of it,” he said, adding that “as the market slows down, Chinese automakers are going to face competition as they never have before.”

Lots across China became increasingly crowded with unsold cars as sales were slightly lower in August and September than a year earlier. Yet manufacturers unexpectedly increased their shipments of new vehicles to dealerships last month by 10 percent compared with a year earlier, seeking to keep new factories busy and avoid layoffs.

Retail sales figures for October are due this week, and are likely to show a further decline that could set off another round of price cuts in a market where discounting is already becoming increasingly common.

Detroit has repeatedly found that raising production in the face of weak retail sales is a recipe for financial trouble, and there is little reason to think that will be different in China.

The Chinese auto industry faces several threats simultaneously. Weakening economic growth, falling real estate prices and a yearlong plunge in the stock market have made consumers leery of spending money. Fuel prices in China are still high despite the recent decline in world oil prices. And Chinese auto exports, mostly to developing countries in Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, Africa and Latin America, are starting to crumble.

China’s car industry is already bigger than Japan’s, and is approaching in sales the industries of the United States and all of Europe. China is on track to sell 10 million vehicles this year, while demand in the United States is dropping toward 14 million vehicles.

Automobiles have played a central role in Beijing’s recent plans to move up the manufacturing chain, from making cheap goods that require unskilled or low-skilled workers to more advanced products.

To that end, the Chinese government has provided considerable help to China’s nascent auto industry with research and development spending, as well as loans from state-owned banks.

But there is some disagreement within the Chinese auto industry now about how the government can be most helpful.

Some companies, like Geely, are looking for more government grants to help them develop hybrid gasoline-electric cars and other cutting-edge technologies for which research spending may be cut if sales do not recover.

But Zheng Qinghong, the general manager of Guangzhou Auto, one of China’s largest and fastest-growing automakers, said that the Chinese industry needs the government to help consumers become enthusiastic again about buying cars. Retail sales have dipped a couple percentage points to 750,000 a month; sales were still rising at an annual pace of 24 percent a year ago. “The best way is to boost growth in demand” for cars, through steps like lower car taxes and lower fuel prices, he said in an interview.

Western multinationals would probably benefit at least indirectly from any government initiative to help China’s auto industry, because Western companies are required to do business through joint ventures with Chinese automakers, most of which are partly or entirely government owned.

Jeffrey Shen, the chief executive and president of one of these joint ventures, the Changan Ford Mazda Automobile Company, said that he did not know how the government would help, but that some steps were inevitable. “I’m sure it will come,” he said, with both extra assistance for research and greater availability of loans.

The renewed willingness of state-owned banks to lend money to the auto industry this autumn is in contrast with the United States, where General Motors, Ford and Chrysler have found banks and other investors leery of lending to them.

Government-mandated lending quotas, not interest rates, tend to be the most important limit on bank lending in China. Regulators have begun easing the quotas this fall after four years of fairly tight quotas imposed in an effort to control the growth of the money supply and limit inflation.

Direct loans from the government of the sort under discussion in Washington are not needed in China, Mr. Zheng said. “For now, the Chinese auto industry doesn’t need saving” in the same way as the American industry, he said.

Chinese automakers began facing real difficulties only in the third quarter, and have not yet released results for that period; many release their results only twice a year.

Gas prices have not fallen in China because the government pushed up regulated retail gasoline and diesel prices at service stations to more than $3 a gallon over the last year, but has not lowered retail prices as oil prices have plunged.

The government is trying to encourage energy conservation and allow oil refiners to recover financially from sometimes being forced to sell gasoline and diesel below cost earlier this year during the spike in oil prices.

China’s top three export markets for fully assembled vehicles are Russia, Ukraine and Vietnam, all of which are struggling with the global financial crisis.

Great Wall Motor has had a 40 percent plunge in its monthly exports to Russia in the last three months, said Steven Wang, the deputy manager of the company’s international trade division. But Great Wall Motor has still managed to avoid any layoffs because domestic sales remain strong enough to maintain employment, Mr. Wang said.

With China’s largest automakers involved in joint ventures with American automakers, and with the entire Chinese auto industry now seeking its own forms of government help as well, criticism of any bailout for Detroit has been muted. Producers elsewhere in Asia, facing declining markets at home as well, have also been hesitant to criticize.

“We support vigorous competition in the automotive market place and recognize there may be extraordinary situations when such a vital sector of the American economy may require unprecedented actions to assure its long-term viability and a healthy American economy which benefits everyone,” said Jake Jang, a spokesman for Hyundai Motor in South Korea.

But managers at some of the smaller Chinese manufacturers, especially those with hopes of entering the American market some day, are unhappy about the prospect of assistance for Detroit from Washington.

“If G.M., Ford and Chrysler get a lot of support from their government, it’s not fair,” said Gordon Chen, the international business manager of Changfeng Motor, which has displayed cars at the last two Detroit auto shows in preparation for entering the American market in 2011 or 2012.

[mr bruce]

Love it, If the US gov. helps US companys, it's unfair to Chinese companys. Hey, maybe we will win the race to the bottom.

[RedBarchetta]

I will wind up rubber bands under the hood before I buy a Chinese car.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by RedBarchetta

I will wind up rubber bands under the hood before I buy a Chinese car.

Amen Brother!