Should the US bailout the big three automakers?

[bobcowan]

Interesting thread. I read every post, and noticed a few things.

Despite stats to the contrary, people insist the big three only make crappy vehicles that nobody wants. And yet, GM outsells every other car maker on the planet.

People insist that their toyato is better than anything made in the US. And yet, JDP, CR, etc, all point out data to the contrary.

More griping about the unions than anything else. Which has little - if anything to do with the actual bail out money.

"Don't give them my hard earned dollar" is a common theme. The bail out is in the form of Gov't loans and loan guarantees. These loans could end up being lost money, but that's not the intention.

When loans are provided, they are for specific purposes. Not $10M for an exec bonus. Some of that money will find it's way into the wrong pockets, it always does. But, didn't that also happen with the the Katrina money? Nobody rallied against that bail out.

Lets look at what will happen if Chrysler fails. tens of thousands of workers will be unemployed. Not paying their rent, or paying of their debts. They will file for bankruptcy, and millions of dollars will be lost to the economy. Credit card interest rates will rise, so the banks can make their profits. More people will go under because they can't afford 25% interest every month.

All the companies that support the workers will go under. Frome the company that makes brake pads, all the way down to the guy who runs a hot dog stand outside the gate. Remember the Peace Dividend of the early 90's? Same thing will happen on a much larger scale.

15 manufacturing plants will close. Now, out of all the BS, rhetoric, stats, and numbers, this is the most important. We will lose manufacturing capability. Once the world economy picks up again (and it will), what will happen? We will be unable to manufacture cars, brake pads, engines, washing machines, etc. We will have to purchase our manufactured goods from Korea. Our economy will be so bad, the dollar will be almost worthless. We can't build our own stuff, and we can't afford to buy imported stuff. We'll al be driving a Pravda.

A country that can't make stuff has nothing to offer the world economy. Ask Viet Nam about that. We will be a third world nation, unable to pull itself out of a depression. Countries like Japan, Korea, Germany will be running the show here.

And, finally, think about defense. Remember WWII? What allowed us to win that war? Numbers. War is a numbers game. Whoever has the greatest numbers of planes, ships, tanks, and men, will win the war. In the 40's, manufacturing plants all over the US were converted to wartime use. Singer made tens of thousands of rifles. Chrysler made tanks. Ford made jeeps.

If we can't make stuff, we can't defend ourselves.

If we lose our manufacturing capability, it will be the end of the US as we know it.

[RedBarchetta]

Bob, we still make the BEST laser-guided bomb/missile on the freakin' planet. And we don't need a vehicle production facility to manufacture that. I hear what you're saying, but since you've taken this thread toward more of a war-preparedness angle, allow me to share a quote:

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein

If our borders were ever breached, no amount of amory is going to matter. It will be a different war theater, much bleaker than your worst fears could ever imagine. I personally don't see the cause/effect of reducing our manufacturing capabilities in a 21st century global economy. It's too fluid...resources will be deployed where it's most economical.

And whether we choose to accept it or not, this debate over saving the Big 3 has EVERYTHING to do with protecting the unions. That's what the Democrats support, and now that they have the power they will enforce their will. It's the only economic card they have to play right now. The UAW, over decades, has brought the Big 3 to this very day. Chrysler's mis-steps in the '80s' were merely a distance early warning.

The Big 3 make decent cars...not world class but decent. Their business models are all flecked up though and they haven't re-charted their collective courses fast enough. Now that they are on the edge of the abyss, they start being more public about how they are doing this and doing that. It's too little, too late.

Let the BKs happen, give the dust a chance to settle. A python can't digest a pig quickly...it takes time. Patience is running thin and that is what is causing many at the top to make poor decisions. We have lost our ability to take the LT view and stick to the plan. Everyone wants the quick fix and is afraid to swallow the medicine (no matter how awful it's going to be). I don't care about the rest of my life...God has a plan and will take care of me. I'm worried how it's going to be for my kids. We (our country) are simply not thinking in those terms at the moment.

[tool time George]

I say NO to all forms of bailouts. Isn't GREED a nasty vehicle.
Everyone from the top of the chain to the bottom is guilty of it on some level.
Unfortunately our families will suffer for it for generations to come.
Spend the money on health care.Charging 387 thousand for surgery to someone who makes 10$/hr is utterly ridiculous.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by tool time George

Charging 387 thousand for surgery to someone who makes 10$/hr is utterly ridiculous.

I agree. So just don't do the operation. It saves money. Major organ transplants, like liver transplants, are really the only operations to cost that kind of money. Canada has taken that point of view as well. Ssaves everybody money. I say let those people die. There is a point where the life of somebody is not worth the cost to keep them alive, and no $10/hr person is worth $400,000.

NDP renews call for change to organ donation system
Tue, 2008-07-29 12:41.
Lisa Naccarato
Renewed calls today for the province to revamp its organ donation system. New democrats say last year 100 people died waiting for an organ transplant while healthy organs were wasted.

Listen to Lisa Naccarato's report on proposed changes to the organ donation program

MPP Peter Kormos has been championing this issue for years, this fall he'll re-introduce for a third time a private member's bill calling on the McGuinty government to change the organ donor system to one that presumes consent, instead of requiring written permission.

"As we speak, good organs are being burned or buried across this province. It takes the political will, the political will to do it."

Andres Cotic fully supports Kormos' bill, he's in desperate need of a liver transplant, the 60 year old Toronto man says there are thousands on the organ wait list suffering and dying in silence.



Like I said. Not doing the operations saves money. Canada knows. 100 people, $400,000 a piece. Canada saved $40,000,000. And those people would likely not be productive after the operation anyways. Canada knows what it's doing.

[mr bruce]

Take all them auto union members (and their families) (and all the other people working in businesses, and towns and citys, etc)and euthanize them, problem solved.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by mr bruce

Take all them auto union members (and their families) (and all the other people working in businesses, and towns and citys, etc)and euthanize them, problem solved.

Just the UAW members would be fine...

Next...the assinine medical profession that wastes so much money on needless toys and tests and overcharges the hell out of everyone and drives the costs of healthcare up, which is a major portion of the cost of each car. {Meant as a retort to those with god-like tendencies}

[ng8264723]

That $400,000 surgery costs $400,000 b/c you have people whospend 15 years training for the job. It's interesting that people don't wat to pay MD's but will pay a baseball player millions. Health care is not a right it's a privilege.
ED Doc

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ng8264723

That $400,000 surgery costs $400,000 b/c you have people whospend 15 years training for the job. It's interesting that people don't wat to pay MD's but will pay a baseball player millions. Health care is not a right it's a privilege.
ED Doc

Pay the doctors the mega bucks, but stop charging $25 for one aspirin.

[speed220mph]

The bailout . . . a different perspective

Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for
tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed.
Now we are trusting the economy of our country to a pack of nit-wits who
couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze?

Quote of the day from a fund manager:

"This is worse than a divorce... I've lost half of my net worth and I
still have my wife.."

[CobraDan]

________________________________________
Stores across America are being scheduled to close after the Christmas season due to economic difficulties and bankruptcy.
Circuit City Filed Bankruptcy, they promised to keep all stores open for the holiday season, but afterwards, they plan on closing 155 stores nationwide.

Ann Taylor closing 117 stores nationwide.
A company spokeswoman said the company hasn't revealed which stores will be
shuttered. It will let the stores that will close this fiscal year know
over the next month

Eddie Bauer to close more stores.
Eddie Bauer has already closed 27 shops in the first quarter and plans to
close up to two more outlet stores by the end of the year.

Cache closing stores.
Women's retailer Cache announced that it is closing 20 to 23 stores this
year.

Lane Bryant, Fashion Bug, and Catherines closing 150 stores nationwide.
The owner of retailers Lane Bryant , Fashion Bug, Catherines Plus Sizes will
close about 150 underperforming stores this year. The company hasn't
provided a list of specific store closures and can't say! when it will offer
that info, spokeswoman Brooke Perry said today.

Talbots, J. Jill closing stores.
About a month ago, Talbots announced that it will be shuttering all 78 of
its kids and men 's stores. Now t he company says it will close another 22
underperforming stores. The 22 stores will be a mix of Talbots women's and
J Jill, another chain it owns. The closures will occur this fiscal year,
according to a company press release.

Gap Inc. closing 85 stores
In addition to its namesake chain, Gap also owns Old Navy and Banana
Republic . The company said the closures - all planned for fiscal 2008 -
will be weighted toward the Gap brand.

Foot Locker to close 140 stores
In the company press release and during its conference call with analysts
today, it did not specify where the future store closures - all planned in
fiscal 2008 - will be. The company could not be immediately reached for
comment

Wickes is going out of business
Wickes Furniture is going out of business and closing all of its stores.
Wickes, a 37-year-old retailer that targets middle-income customers, filed
for bankruptcy protection last month.

Goodbye Levitz / BOMBAY - closed already The furniture retailer, which is
going out of business. Levitz first announced it was going out of business
and closi! ng all 76 of its stores in December. The retailer dates back to
1910 when Richard Levitz opened his first furniture store in Lebanon, PA. In
the 1960s, the warehouse/showroom concept brought Levitz to the forefront of
the furniture industry. The local Levitz closures will follow the shutdown
of Bombay .

Zales, Piercing Pagoda closing stores
The owner of Zales and Piercing Pagoda previously said it plans to close 82
stores by Jul y 31. Later, they announced that it is closing another 23
underperforming stores. The company said it's not providing a list of
specific store closures. Of the 105 locations planned for closure, 50 are
kiosks and 55 are stores.

Disney Store owner has the right to close 98 stores The Walt Disney Company
announced it acquired about 220 Disney Stores from subsidiaries of The
Children's Place Retail Stores. The exact number of stores acquired will
depend on negotiations with landlords. Those subsidiaries of Children's
Place filed for bankruptcy protection in late March. In the news release,
Disney said it has also obtained the right to close about 98 Disney Stores
in the U.S. The press release didn't list those stores.

Home Depot store closings
Nearly 7+ months after its chief executive said there were no plans to cut
the number of its core retail stores, The Home Depot Inc. announced
Thursday that it is shuttering 15 of them amid a slumping US. economy and
housing market. The move will affect 1,300 employees. It is the first
time the world's largest home improvement store chain has ever closed a flagship
store for performance reasons. Its shares rose almost 5 percent.
The Atlanta-based company said the underperforming U.S. stores being closed
represent less than 1 percent of its existing stores They will be
shuttered with in the next two months .

CompUSA clarifies details on store closings Any extended
warranties purchased for products through CompUSA will be honored by a
third-party provider, Assurant Solutions. Gift cards, rain checks, and
rebates purchased prior to December 12 can be redeemed at any time during
the final sale. For those who have a gadget currently in for service with
CompUSA, the repair will be completed and the gadget will be returned to
owners.

Macy's - 9 stores

Movie Gallery - 160 stores will close as part of a reorganization plan to
exit bankruptcy.
The video rental company plans to close 400 of 3,500 Movie Gallery and
Hollywood Video stores in addition to the 520 locations the video rental
chain closed last fall.

Pep Boys - 33 stores

Sprint Nextel - 125 retail locations
New Sprint Nextel CEO Dan Hesse appears to have inherited a company bleeding
subscribers by the thousands, and will now officially be dropping the ax on
4,000 employees and 125 retail locations. Amid the loss of 639,000 postpaid
customers in the fourth quarter, Sprint will be cutting a total of 6.7% of
its work force (following the 5,000 layoffs last year)! and 8% of
company-owned brick-and-mortar stores, while remaining mute on other rumors
that it will consolidate its headquarters in Kansas . Sprint Nextel shares
are down $2.89, or nearly 25%, at the time of this writing.

J. C. Penney, Lowe's and Office Depot will be scaling back and cutting jobs.

Ethan Allen Interiors - The company announced plans to close 12 of 300+
stores in an effort to cut costs.

Wilsons the Leather Experts - all 260 mall stores.

Pacific Sunwear will close its 154 Demo stores after a review of strategic
alternatives for the urban-apparel brand Seventy-four underperforming Demo
stores closed last May.

Sharper Image: The company recently filed for bankruptcy protection and
announced that 90 of its 184 stores are closing. The retailer will still
operate 94 stores to pay off debts, but 90 of these stores have performed
poorly and also may close.

Bombay Company
The company unveiled plans ! to clos e all 384 U.S.-based Bombay Company
stores. The company's online storefront has discontinued operations.

KB Toys posted a list of 356 stores that it is closing around the United
States as part of its bankruptcy reorganization.

Dillard's to Close More Stores
Dillard's Inc. said it will continue to focus on closing underperforming
stores, reducing expenses and improving its merchandise in 2008. At the
company's annual shareholder meeting, CEO William Dillard II said the
company will close another six underperforming stores this year.

Starbucks: Starbucks will close approximately 600 company- operated stores in the U.S.

Pier 1: Announced that they would be closing an undisclosed number of stores.

Kirklands: A chain of home decor stores will be closing nearly 130 stores nationwide.

Sprint: to cut 4500 jobs. and 125 stores.

Linens 'n Things: Is closing 120 stores nationwide

Dell Inc. closed its 140 kiosks in the United States

Liz Claiborne Inc. said it's closing the entire 54-store Sigrid Olsen chain.

Lone Star Steak House: 27 stores closing.

84 Lumber: 12 stores closing

Rite Aid: 28 stores

Big Dollar: dollar stores closing 10 stores

[Bartruff1]

Should implies a value judgement and perhaps that is what you are asking but "should" really doesn't matter. We are going to bail them out.

[G.R.]

Originally Posted by Bartruff1

Should implies a value judgement and perhaps that is what you are asking but "should" really doesn't matter. We are going to bail them out.

Yep we (the taxpayers) will....but I want Stock in the Big 3 for my money. I don't want some dumocrat gov't clone managing my money...if I'm buying in I want a say so...that goes for the banks, the insurance companies and whatever all with their tin cups out.


Take back America's economic freedom...

[Don]

Selected comments, not the entire article:

Fuel-efficient caravan planned for automakers' next trip to D.C.

BY TOM WALSH and MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITERS


" A plan is taking shape for auto suppliers, dealers and the UAW to participate in a cavalcade of fuel-efficient American-brand vehicles to Washington, D.C., in December, when Congress reconsiders the industry's plea for quick action on low-interest loans.The aim is to put a populist face on the need for the American auto industry's survival and to build grassroots support for federal aid, in the wake of criticism that the Detroit Three chief executive officers and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger did not make a convincing case during two days of congressional hearings last week.

The proposal took shape Friday after Tim Leuliette, chairman and CEO of Dura Automotive, a Rochester Hills-based supplier, broached the idea to Rick Wagoner, Alan Mulally and Bob Nardelli, the CEOs of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC. Other supplier executives and auto dealers were quickly engaged in the discussion.

"We want to help dispel the myths" about the Detroit Three, Sean McGuire, Dura vice president of marketing, said Sunday. "It's important to show that these are truly high-tech companies that produce a variety of alternate-fuel and high fuel-efficiency vehicles."

Ford, GM, Chrysler and UAW representatives expressed support for the idea Sunday.

"The UAW thinks it's great that so many people understand the importance of good American jobs and know the value and quality of American vehicles," spokesman Roger Kerson said.

The goal is to bring together a group of 100 or more auto industry leaders and local officials for a rally in Hart Plaza in support of the loans. A cavalcade of hybrids and other fuel-efficient vehicles made by GM, Chrysler and Ford then would head to Washington, with stops along the way for rallies and news conferences. If the CEOs and Gettelfinger present Congress with a specific recovery plan as requested by Dec. 2 and appear for more testimony on Dec. 8, the cavalcade probably would begin on Sunday, Dec. 7.

But the date and the specifics are still under discussion. "

[G.R.]

No one came to bail me out 20+ years ago when I was sitting on a custom built spec home. Every freeking dime I had was tied up in this property, my business assets, my personal home, my investment properties and what cash I had, Yes I was like any other young builder hoping to "cash in"(greed) ... I started the home when construction notes were easy, interest rates low...fast forward 9 mos later ,the economy was tanking, faster than it is now and we had double digit interest rates, the home building/construction industry was in the toilet here in Colorado.

I was damn close to considering filing a Chapter11 and suck up bad credit reports for years after. Thankfully, Tim Nelson, my banker(Bless him!), worked with me extending my construction note for another 9mos and by a quirk I managed to sell my personal home at a small profit. I got a CO(certificate of occupancy) on the spec home and moved into it myself. 6mos or so later the house sold, actually for more than I'd hoped, I paid off my loans and debts....but I never expected the Gov't to help me out...all they wanted was my business and payroll taxes paid.




Maybe large corporations(like the Big 3) should try to work it out on their own and if they can't they fail...like myraids of other businesses. The only reason it has become as bad as it has with these companies is because of mis-management and knowing that ol' Uncle Sam is there with his(our)checkbook....I say NO More...No bailout, (hi-risk) loan or whatever you want to call it....they made their bed let them lie in it and figure a way to make it more comfortable

[Cobrabill]

As of 1722 mountain time the Senate told Detroit to piss off.

[sparks]

get back on there private jet and go home !

[Jerry Clayton]

The reason they use private jets is because the airline pilots are union members

[sparks]

never thought of that

[Jerry Clayton]

Seems like this has turned into North/South, Midwest/West deal

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

Seems like this has turned into North/South, Midwest/West deal

Jerry,once more with clarity.