Should the US bailout the big three automakers?

[Keithc8]

All I drive is American made cars and trucks so I try to support the Big Three. I also agree that everyone across the board at these places need to take a pay cut. I also know that the unions have long out lived their needs. To many people making money of them and that is why they are still here.
I hope that these guys can survive but if no one is buying their product how are they going to pay the money back and stay in business. So we loan them money so that they can keep some jobs going for another three months. All of these people have to get into the real world and do a better product for the money.
I know that if most Americans saw how these union guys work and what they get paid they would be pissed. I know for a fact that some of them go in for 2 hours and then have their buddy clock them out becuase they have to many people doing to little work.
I also want to know why everybody thinks people in the south all live in a trailers. I have a house and all of my employees do except for one. I pay my guys between 15.00 and 20.00 an hour plus all of their health insurance and a retirement program and they have to know more than these UAW guys do.
Most of these unions want their people to work less for more and that is just the way it is. Like I said before if I had to pay anywhere close to what these guys make I would not sell any engine because they would be to high. I do good to get what electricians and plumbers get and I have several million invested. I am the stupid one that got into this business so I have to make it work and pay the bills and that does not happen with a 40 hour work week and 35.00 to 70.00 hour labor.
The way I see it an employee is worth what he knows and can do to make you money. Not everyone can port heads or assemble engines but most anyone can push a button on a machine or tighten 3 bolts all day. If the big three closed down today and put out that they were hiring at 25.00 an hour Jan 1st they would have a line 5 miles long with people wanting a job. I compete every day and no one guarantees me anything.
If my product becomes obsolete I will have to adapt or start making something else. There are a lot of cars on the road and with no one buying new ones so it looks like I might get into regular rebuilding if I have to or I could just have a big auction.
I am not asking the government for **** and do not plan on doing so. We all better learn how to live with less and get of our ass. I have land and know how the grow food and raise livestock if it comes to that. I think that is what we did when we first came to this country and there was no union to stop you from doing that if I remember right. I give uo. Keith

[What'saCobra?]

Well and properly said, sir.

The fact that it is true, helps.

Most of these readers will agree. Unfortunately, most "urban" Americans cannot tell if what you said was true or not. But, only a minority would, if properly informed further, seriously disagree.

American history, including the past and current history of the labor movement, remains as unavailable as Finnish history to most young and middle Americans. Our government school systems, unionized in the late sixties, remain mostly unaware of their primary responsibility for establishing a reasonable American character and culture in our kids. They disagree with American history's lessons, re-orient our kids to a "new" history re-write, destroy our cultural heritage and just plain lie about the past, while the media lie about the present.

We should not be surprised at the results of voting and polls. There are very few serious conservative leaders willing to take them on. GW was not willing to go further than the No Child Left Behind Act, which was a great first step, always lied about in the media.

We need to do more, to help citizens comprehend why these 3 companies have had their heads in the sand since the first VW beetle in 1957, brought back by our servicemen from Germany. Since then we have constantly lost market share to foreign invention, style, efficiency and image. The current group of Detroit auto leadership will not so easily stay in power. Their children will not be able to afford their parent's Bloomfield Hills homes in the future, unless they get serious about moving much more quickly and taking what risks are necessary to reduce costs. All costs... including UAW wages, IBEW wages and MYOB wages...

[PatBuckley]

Wow!

At first I thought this thread was nothing more than a "make work" project on Brents part for the moderators.....but it is great to be wrong and see all the rational discussion going on.

[sparks]

Keith, you gotta remember that 15-20 hr is not to bad where you live but up in chicago or most big cities thats not gonna get you to far. As far as people who r useless at work , they must be fired.... With my work you get 2 warnings and then you r fired! And the union has no ability to stop it. Which is how it should be....I tried to get a job at the chrys. plant by my house as an electrician but didnt have a IN at the plant. It would be a pay cut but its only 10min. from my house as opposed to 75min. drive each way.....

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

It has NOTHING to do with pro-W and much to do with anti-W. Like McCain, he had an opportunity to do the correct thing, but just couldn't live with the thought that the media would blame him for a while.

News flash!... the media will blame him for everything anyway, so go and do the right thing. But, too late.

It has already started...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/...ss/21admin.php

[Tom Kirkham]

An interesting article on how the SEC and the rating agencies...

http://www.moneymorning.com/2008/12/...ting-agencies/

[Bartruff1]

Originally Posted by PatBuckley

Wow!

At first I thought this thread was nothing more than a "make work" project on Brents part for the moderators.....but it is great to be wrong and see all the rational discussion going on.

No one...absolutely no one ...is defending irresponsible behavior on the part of workers...if it is even true , that is a management problem that can be solved...no one...is defending pay that is out of line... the problem here is the temporary cumlative effect of credit crunch....over capacity....inability to adjust inventory and production as fast as the price of gas....unemployment... loss of home equity.....a near depression and the manufacturing base of the country being at risk....I have heard more rational discussions in bars...

[Don]

Tom, the story you posted the link for is also the subject of a lead article by the same three reporters on the front page of today's Sunday New York Times, same picture, titled " White House Philosophy Stoked Mortgage Bonfire " The complete article is 2 1/2 full pages with time lines, pictures of the staff reporting to Bush etc., i.e. extensive coverage.

Article starts with the identical Bush quote from Oct 15, 2002:

" We can put light where there's darkness, and hope where there's despondency in this country. And part of it is working together as a nation to encourage folks to own their own home. "

[Bartruff1]

Originally Posted by PatBuckley

Wow!

At first I thought this thread was nothing more than a "make work" project on Brents part for the moderators.....but it is great to be wrong and see all the rational discussion going on.

Pat I owe you a apology. There are several thoughtful posting in here. I get just get annoyed at the postings that state myth and opinions as facts and those with political agendas and those that want to throw the baby out with the bath. Sorry....

[Ron61]

I wish I had copied the link as it was on yesterday or the day before I believe, but Canada is bailing out the Big 3 plants up there now. I don't believe they are putting as much up as we are, but they want them to stay open so people can have jobs. I am not sure about how their Bankrupt Law is in Canada or if they even have one. If not, then it would be either the plants stay open or close with the loss of all jobs. Perhaps one of our Canadian group could explain more about this.

Edit: Found the link to the Canadian Bailout. http://www.reuters.com/article/busin...e=businessNews

Ron

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Tom Kirkham

It has already started...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/...ss/21admin.php

White House response to NY Times hit piece:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20081221.html

[Don]

Additional Commentary regarding the NY Times :

" Setting the Record Straight: The Three Most Egregious Claims In The New York Times Article On The Housing Crisis

The New York Times Reporters Jo Becker, Sheryl Stolberg, And Stephen Labaton Ignore The Facts And Place Unfounded Blame On President Bush And His Administration Over The Current Housing Crisis "


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0081221-2.html

[Bartruff1]

I think Cheney has one...

[Jamo]

Frank, Dodd, Reid and Pelosi...the Scarecrow (no brain), Lion (no courage), Tin Man (no heart) and Dorothy (a twit with a lapdog) were all in favor of following the yellow brick road.

And what did they find at the end? Freddie and Fanny behind the curtain.

[What'saCobra?]

Sounds like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, classic examples of drug-induced studied-ignorance, megalomania & paranoia. Who says crack is the only drug?
--------------
Throwing make-work "infra-structure" billions (or actually to be TRILLIONS) will not create 1/4 the number of sustainable jobs and industries that the same tax reduction will create. Nor will it place the investments as intelligently in society's interest. The political process simply does not optimize general interest, just political interest. Look at Chicago's current corruption revelations. Can you believe they are making the best decisions for either school building or curriculum formation?

Much much more money placed at political risk by the next regime will simply putrify the much deeper waters. Remember, once individuals are compromised, they can only rarely escape the system. That's Chicago's heritage. Culturally normative but wholesale disrespect for the law creates the initial opportunity and willingness to game the system, but the fear of retribution (see: dead fish) and eventual legal entanglements keeps everyone in line long after the first taste. Ask me what it took to keep our company and our clients "clean" in Russia and St. Petersburg for almost 10 years. Trust this, i was not popular with anyone... even my own.

Of course, we could always use a few new bridges, etc. But did Boston's "big dig" need all that underground billions of "infrastructure" that will NOT stand the test of time (that is, will not be maintenance-sustainable)? Of course, not, but Tipper & Teddy-boy & Lurch needed to go out with a bang and they bot one. (One woman is already dead from a falling roof panel that proved the bolts were re-installed with irresponsibly wrong engineering decisions.)

Just like FDR's massive guv'ment spending programs of the thirties, the new regime will really spend the money cementing its inner-city political systems into another frozen patrician's-heaven of permanent political power over the US House for another 50 years; they hope. Some insightful conservatives (and even a few dems) promised that along with 0'Bambi would come lots of Chicago-style political corruption, but people do not want to believe it under any circumstances. One stinking bridge to no-where (however wrong & wasteful) will look mighty cheap compared to the next two years of dem party feed-lot frenzy.

The non-conservative wing of the pubbie party has screwed us all, big time, for not keeping fiscal promises and not over-spending. W didn't want to fight with them any more than with the dems. Mind you, it doesn't really matter, almost anyway, since the old media will drum-up any excuses to allow 0'Bambi to win ("too big & too important to let fail"). This is not simply a matter of political preference. There is real science in economics. Monstrous overspending will create inflation, huge deficits, low growth, make-work careers for more guv-ment dependencies and many many more pissed citizens of both stripes.

The dems will over-reach again, of course. Doesn't matter about which subject. With any common sense, tough in-and-out fighting and enough old media upheaval, conservative control over the Senate will be returned no later than 2010.

Voters like scrappy politicians, even if they are corrupt, as long as they get preferred media treatment along with plenty of pretty wall-paper... Newt Gingrich won over the Congress from Clinton after 35 years+ in the wilderness, as a result of good political fighting. He fought the dems, he fought the media and he fought the moderates into submission. W has had this pseudo-religious picture of genuine compromise in Washington that simply never has happened, didn't and isn't going to happen. The only political "peace" available in DC is when you let the uber-left liberal/gay/murder-called-Choice current dem leadership have their sweet way and you accept their table-scraps.

As Joe Biden just demonstrated, if you want a friend in Washington DC, get a dog.

If the big three management imagine ANY AFL-CIO union will compromise, they are simply dreaming dopes, reading and believing their own PR releases. They have not had to compromise yet, do not intend to do so unless at their own considerable career peril and will not do so until a judge tells them the terms they have to accept. It is not here yet, but it is coming. After the judge's ruling(s), expect stock market price upside breakouts on FORD or GM. But, not until.

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Ask me what it took to keep our company and our clients "clean" in Russia and St. Petersburg for almost 10 years.

I suspect it wasn't much different than what it took us in Poland...

But, since you brought up Russia I thought you would like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l46t_nrySg4

[What'saCobra?]

Beck is a seriously sick freak, as he insists. Thanks.

We operated in the land of the Rus from 1987 to 1997. It was a wild and crazy time. Most of our late twenties or thirty-something Rus were very well educated, had a strong command of English and had been engineer/scientists, now wanting business Americanski experience.

We never missed being paid in hard currency and typically took a 2000 person company down to a real good 150 person company that was effective in whatever industry they had unique/original expertise. We would pay the rest for a few years to stay home and "study" and save heating and lighting empty plant spaces.

We frequently joked that we had enough specialist knowledge that we could develop special devices, should we have chosen to do so, rather than more mundane products and service of regular commercial utility. Several of us had that background, but kept the jokes to a minimum, as things have a way of getting out of control, y'know?

Dealing with the government was like dealing with the longshoremen's union. Made dealing with the FORD union at the Cleveland plant comparatively easy. The UAW was far better educated and more finely focused. But, the Soviet/nationalist "leaders" were easier with which to find accommodation. Output spoke louder than any other single accomplishment. Cleveland had way too many conflicting goals and objectives to find easier solutions.

Don't forget... if the lights go out in the machine shop, duck! So, when the New Russian political lights were flickering in 1997, i came on home to discover many American business mores were forever changed as a result of the Clintonian Rules of Public Disarray and Dis-order.

To think that i used to give my Christmas Party lecture describing the common US/Russian historical threads, particularly regarding John Paul Jones's Father of the US Navy and also of the first modern Russian Navy under Catherine the Great. As Melville wrote, perhaps America was the John Paul Jones of nations and the great Whore-Meistress Catherine knew that about both subjects.

Ford was trying previously to sell Russia a car factory, but could not match the cheap Italian FIAT/LADA combination. A great lost opportunity. They apparently didn't need my help.

It just seems a bloody shame that FORD today is in such awful straits; but many predicted that their fickle on/off approach to projects and programs would sooner or later spell too much wasted time, money and opportunity.

[TerrysSPF]

The NYT article was indeed a hit-piece on Bush.
I guess the NY Times forgot about their own article back in 1999 when they spoke of Fannie and Freddie.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gla...nie-mae-crises

Here is a favorite video of mine with Barney Frank sticking his foot in his mouth while sticking up for his pals at Fannie Mae. -I especially like the part where he say's that, even if they fail, "the Fed Govt wouldn't bail them out."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp...eature=related

People are going to have to really DID DEEP for facts in the upcoming years (especially the next 4) because the Press is going to do everything they can to protect Obama, and blame all of America's upcoming problems (during the Obama years) on former Bush policies.
-Journalistic integrity is long gone in this Country, folks.

[What'saCobra?]

The old media are in their death throes (not just in the USA), looking for new owners or very brave second line managers to step up and change the tune. Mostly, not very likely. Much party policy bias is established by the current ownership, not even really the newsdesk, who only follow mostly unstated and largely unwritten editorial and positioning policy.

Even today, the old grey lady NYTimes still sets the agenda for daily news in more than 1/2 of America's daily newspapers. Like the special voting stock of the FORD family, the NYTImes has an old corporate form of senior voting shares that give the controlling family inordinate power over board members and voting authority. These forms are deemed illegal today, as they place subsequent investors in very subordinate authority, despite their larger investments.

At the NYTimes, the Sulzberger family has not yet decided to throw Arthur O. Jr. out to the wolves (or the trash bin or shredder or chipper, as they might deem or not appropriate). They are now eating corpus for the first time. Most of the family doesn't do much and nothing at the paper or subsidiaries. They are not used to working for their daily bread at the paper that pays their lifestyle. His days are numbered, particularly if they decide to sell the city offices. As a a "platform-agnostic" multimedia man, meaning he doesn't particularly care about newspapers, Sulzberger is currently a very big failure and has been seen to be one for nearly two years.

To quote Wiki, Jr. says, "Within our lifetimes, the distribution of news and information is going to shift to broadband. We must enter the broadband world having mastered the three key skill sets -- print, Internet, and video -- because that's what's going to ensure the future of this news organization in the years ahead." None of this, however, discusses or mitigates his decidedly "progressive liberal" leftist bias and its effect on NYTimes news objectivity, accuracy and necessary balance. Your quoted article clearly exposes the obvious bias and agenda against conservative American values, interests and national security objectives.

Deep digging will be not only necessary between here and the 2010 elections, but the internet will provide the sources necessary for the coming fight. i will give 0 the same breaks and support he and his cohorts have given W. No less, but no more. The only difference is that i will not have to lie by either commission or omission. Simple truth will be sufficient.

US Rep. Barney Fwank (D-MA) ought to be called to testify under oath, along with US Senator Dodd (D-CT), who started the bank runs against Indy-Mac, this past summer.

The rather desperate 3 US auto companies are just swinging in these political/financial winds, along with their US arms of the foreign companies, very much unable to plan much tomorrow, let alone next years investments. But, a large pent-up demand for US cars is building and sooner or later it will be satisfied by the first people figuring-out how to break this credit log-jam.

Four months ago, who would have thought Toyota would stop finishing-out the US Prius Hybrid factory in Tupelo, Mississippi?

Who would have guessed two for one auto sales?

Remember, though, 0 is too big and important to let fail. They can hate Sarah Palin or Mitt or Rudy, but if you hate Obama or his team, you are both a racist and breaking Federal law.

Chew on that a little. What does that say about the next election cycle?

[Don]

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