Free speech.....war comming....

[VRM]

I fail to see what the problem is.
It is not just Christians that will feel the pinch - no money will be spent for Hare Krishnas, Jews, Satanists, and so on. None of them should receive any funds or support from the government.

Too may people still do not understand the Constitution. Those religions will still have the freedom of speech - but nothing in the Constitution says that they have to be provided with a pulpit.

Do any of you Christian types want to pay extra taxes to fund a meeting place for Satanists?


Steve

[J. T. Toad]

Originally Posted by VRM

I fail to see what the problem is.
It is not just Christians that will feel the pinch - no money will be spent for Hare Krishnas, Jews, Satanists, and so on. None of them should receive any funds or support from the government.

Too may people still do not understand the Constitution. Those religions will still have the freedom of speech - but nothing in the Constitution says that they have to be provided with a pulpit.

Do any of you Christian types want to pay extra taxes to fund a meeting place for Satanists?


Steve

Point well noted Steve, but, from what I have seen, policy implementation has been more geared to the destruction of Christianity theology, than a balanced incorporation of differing religious policies.

Is it right that charter schools of Wiccan and Islamic influence receive tax revenue under the guise of tolerance, while funding is pulled from schools with a Chrisitian basis?

If I were to accept your "constitutional stance" Wouldn't this then need to extend to all branches of government? (National Cathedral, Police Chaplin, all forms of military, the prison system, current forms of all government (federal down to state down to local), etc. this list could get very very long) The implications are fearsome.

Regardless of a religious basis, there are many taxes collected and paid out for institutions which many individuals find unworthy.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

Point well noted Steve, but, from what I have seen, policy implementation has been more geared to the destruction of Christianity theology, than a balanced incorporation of differing religious policies.

Is it right that charter schools of Wiccan and Islamic influence receive tax revenue under the guise of tolerance, while funding is pulled from schools with a Chrisitian basis?

If I were to accept your "constitutional stance" Wouldn't this then need to extend to all branches of government? (National Cathedral, Police Chaplin, all forms of military, the prison system, current forms of all government (federal down to state down to local), etc. this list could get very very long) The implications are fearsome.

Regardless of a religious basis, there are many taxes collected and paid out for institutions which many individuals find unworthy.

JT,
I think Christians in this country already have too much that belongs to the public, so the perception is that they are having more taken away from them when they are made to be the equal of other religions.

Remember E Pluribus Unum? Our money didn't always say 'in god we trust'. The Pledge of Allegiance did not always say 'under god' either. Would you feel attacked as a Christian if we went back to the old motto or the original pledge? I am sure that millions of Christians would be really bent out of shape if we did that, despite the fact that both of those 'god' additions are pretty recent things. They would say it was an attack on their religion, rather than viewing it as having a nice free advertisement for theiri religion for 50 years or so.

I don';t know of any Wiccan or Islamic schools in the US that get any tax revenue. Please let me know which ones. And no, they should not get anything either.

If the government gives any sort of support to one religion it needs to do the same for all religions. The DoD recently approved Wiccan grave markers for soldiers. And there are chaplains of multiple faiths in order to support troops, police, and so on. That fits much better with the establishment clause as no favourites are being played.

And yes, our taxes go to a LOT of unworthy causes, but most of them are not specifically spelled out on the Constitution.

[Buzz]

Do any of you Christian types want to pay extra taxes to fund a meeting place for Satanists?

I'll chip in. Nothing like the sight of a bunch of butt-nekkid Wiccan girls dancin around a bonfire!

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Buzz

I'll chip in. Nothing like the sight of a bunch of butt-nekkid Wiccan girls dancin around a bonfire!

You mean the unshaved ones?

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by VRM

You mean the unshaved ones?

No. I hear they placed a ban on body hair ever since one gal danced too close to the flames and started a bush fire.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Buzz

No. I hear they placed a ban on body hair ever since one gal danced too close to the flames and started a bush fire.

ROFLMAO!!

Well done!

And she was too...

[cobra bill]

Buzz,
finally someone in the lounge is making sense, the vitriol hatred that is spewed in the lounge is disturbing, all this talk about the stimulus bill is just mindless political rotoric,
talking points put out by the worst the media has to offer.
The reason that our economy is crashing is no one is spending money, banks are not loaning money and people are afraid to spend when they don't know if they will have a job tomorrow.
The way to cure this is to stimulate the economy, the way they do that is spend money, that's exactly what the stimulus bill does, you may not like everything in it, but you cannot deny that everything in it will put someone to work, if they are working they are spending, if they are spending, we start our climb out of the mess, if we do nothing, or wait too long recovery may take 10 years or more, if at all if we do this we could turn this around in 2 to 4 years.
The same thing could be said about the tax situation, some think the cure to all of our troubles is to cut taxes, I say they are a necessary evil, and those that cry most about cutting taxes would never be effected by the taxes anyway. I think we need to go back to the pre Reagan taxes, prior to that we had a slow steady growth, every time the taxes were lowered on the top 5% we have had a bubble and it always pops!
Taxes are like the air fuel mixture in your engine, too much fuel and you flood the engine! the mix has to be just right. we have enough history on the GGDP to know and understand what point the mix needs to be, but, and here lies the crux of the biscuit, the top 5% have their preferred party bamboozled into thinking that taxing them at those rates will harm the middle class, it's a lie! So now we have CEO,s making 275% more than the average worker and our economy has not grown, its only when that rate was closer to what they pay their labor has the economy grown,
It's not to say that they cannot shelter there income, but that requires them to invest it, and when the labor can earn a living wage, when that happens the economy grows.

[J. T. Toad]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

The reason that our economy is crashing is no one is spending money, banks are not loaning money and people are afraid to spend when they don't know if they will have a job tomorrow.
The way to cure this is to stimulate the economy, the way they do that is spend money,

Bill,
Don't read further, as it won't do either of us benefit,
but for anyone else, sans nevermind65.....

as respectfully as I can, there is so much wrong with this post.

Our economy is crashing because people spent money they didn't have. Banks aren't loaning cause they ain't getting paid back, cause the don't have any money (they already spent it).

Spending money frivolously without fiduciary responsibility has been the historical cause of every financial 'correction.'

The concept is called supply and demand.

I nearly tossed my cookies when Obama compared his plan to the "NEW DEAL."

[joe g]

CobraBill
You don't like tax cuts? You feel the government is better at spending YOUR money--

where have you been in the last year- bank failures, Wall Street caving in, Stores closing everywhere and NOW YOU want the governemnt to fix it! Putting in office the same idiots who messed things up is not CHANGE, guys like Daschal etc helped create this mess. Dodd and Franks etc will only continue to screw us the little guy.
Give me back some of the $29,000.00 i paid last year in federal tax and i will buy a new boat or car.
$300mil for the fisherys, or new grass or $34 mil for fixing off road trails, i could go on and on.
I want things to get better FAST, but not by paying back Polosi's buddy's.
COMPROMISE--where did itgo!
Joeg (Smokingcobra)

[cobra bill]

Joe G,
You are correct, I do not like tax cuts! there is no free lunch, someone has to pay for all that we have the privilege of enjoying in this country, When Reagan cut the taxes from the 60 to 70% range, it started the same bubble that was stared in the last great republican depression now we are doing it again, and the only ones to pay that amount was the ones who made over $300,000 and back then that was more than enough for anyone to live on very comfortably.
the very fallowing year Reagan made the LARGEST tax increase in us history, and it fell on the working class in the form of Social security taxes and exempted those making over 95,000 from paying on the income they made over that, so the major tax burden was placed on the middle class and taken away from those who benefit most from this great country then they started the war on labor and have been at it since, keeping wages down taking away benefits and stripping good working Americans of their dignity,
now we no longer enjoy a living wage, it takes both members of a household working full time just to get by, let alone get ahead. So yes I don't mind paying my taxes, just so long as it is a fair taxation.

As for the democrats you mentioned, I have no control over who those states that they are from vote for, just like I don't care for every republican, the same goes for the democrats, and there were plenty from both parties that had a hand in this one!

[Joe Wicked]

J.T.,
There are some who want just that. I myself do not mind and I think it is a good thing. I believe in freedom of religion to the point of not infringing on another persons rights. As soon as I make everyone pray, they praying must stop in schools. Unfortunately I saw this happen first hand. As far as I see it a Police chaplain is fine as long as the officers are not made to listen to a priest that they do not want to. Unfortunately there are those that believe that just the presence of such a person is violating their rights. I do not agree with this as they are not being forced to agree to or with the particular religion. Personnel in the government should be allowed to express their personal religious beliefs so long as they do not try to force those beliefs on another.

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

J.T.,
There are some who want just that. I myself do not mind and I think it is a good thing. I believe in freedom of religion to the point of not infringing on another persons rights. As soon as I make everyone pray, they praying must stop in schools. Unfortunately I saw this happen first hand. As far as I see it a Police chaplain is fine as long as the officers are not made to listen to a priest that they do not want to. Unfortunately there are those that believe that just the presence of such a person is violating their rights. I do not agree with this as they are not being forced to agree to or with the particular religion. Personnel in the government should be allowed to express their personal religious beliefs so long as they do not try to force those beliefs on another.

I hear this often about forcing someone to believe in a certain way. Why is their such worry about that happening here, dont get me wrong I am not for it, I just dont know where this is happening in America. No one is ever forced to pray their is no gun held to their head. No one is forced to believe a certain doctrine or join a particular house of worship. I know this might be the way in the Mid east and also in communist China, where religious freedom is not tolerated. But why must we always talk about forcing, when its not an issue, or if it is tell me where its happening.

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by RAZOR

I hear this often about forcing someone to believe in a certain way. Why is their such worry about that happening here, dont get me wrong I am not for it, I just dont know where this is happening in America. No one is ever forced to pray their is no gun held to their head. No one is forced to believe a certain doctrine or join a particular house of worship. I know this might be the way in the Mid east and also in communist China, where religious freedom is not tolerated. But why must we always talk about forcing, when its not an issue, or if it is tell me where its happening.

That is my point. Most times the people are not being forced, but just witnessing someone praying. Unfortunately in the public school I went to, if you did not pray, you were ridiculed, embarrassed, and made to feel like an evil person if you did not pray. It was the teachers and administration doing this. I myself didn't have a problem with praying, and I used to laugh at those who went through this. I look back now and it is a regret I have from my youth.

Just to be clear, I do not believe this is the norm. This is an isolated incident, but it only takes isolated incidents for knee jerk reactions to take place where everything is banned to silence a squeaky wheel.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

That is my point. Most times the people are not being forced, but just witnessing someone praying. Unfortunately in the public school I went to, if you did not pray, you were ridiculed, embarrassed, and made to feel like an evil person if you did not pray. It was the teachers and administration doing this. I myself didn't have a problem with praying, and I used to laugh at those who went through this. I look back now and it is a regret I have from my youth.

Just to be clear, I do not believe this is the norm. This is an isolated incident, but it only takes isolated incidents for knee jerk reactions to take place where everything is banned to silence a squeaky wheel.

I remember being in elementary school reciting the pledge of allegiance every day, but by the time I was a senior in high school (in 1982), the students in my homeroom would only bother to stand up for the pledge. If you actually put your hand on your heart or said the words the other kids would look at you like you were from another planet. Peer pressure!

The only way that I think prayer would be fair in schools would be to vary the religion used every day. That way the kids can be exposed to various cultures, listen to and optionally join in prayer from various dominations of Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Paganism, Ancient Greek Gods, Ancient Egyptian Gods, Hindu, Islam, Satan Worship, Heaven's Gate Suicide Cult, Agnosticism, Atheism, the Force from Star Wars, etc. I think I would actually be OK with that. I bet a lot of the people who want prayer back in school would be completely against the idea of making pray fair to all students in a way that students would not be ridiculed or embarrassed by their religion or lack of one.

I think Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech are compatible. I don't think the government should be paying to build Churches, Temples or other religious buildings. If you want to build a Church, Temple, Mosque or whatever on say a college campus, get organized with others in your own religion and raise the money through your religion. We don't need the government to pay for houses of worship.

If you want your family praying, do whatever works with your religion. You can take them to church, temple or whatever on the appropriate day of the week. Get them involved with some sort of religious group through your house of worship. Say grace at meals and say daily prayers. Read to your family from whatever religious text applies in your case. Take your kids to Sunday school. Join a Bible study group. Go on a religious retreat. There is plenty of opportunity to do all this without trying to get the government or it's public schools to endorse your personal choice of religion. You don't need to fall back on your laziness of exposing your kids to religion by expecting public schools to do it for you. And if you really need your kids exposed to your brand of religion in school, there are perfectly good private religious schools that can do that for you.

Nobody is attacking freedom of religion or your freedom of speech when the government does not fund or endorse your religion. Actually having the government not endorse or fund your religion seems to be exactly what it should be doing to ensure that we have these freedoms.

[RAZOR]

1ntCobra, First of all how do you measure fair, and unfair I notice this is a word the liberals use a lot. I know how to measure right and wrong, legal and illegal,even equitable and inequitable, but FAIR is just too ambiguous, and the desire to make life fair is unattainable, because of its ambiguity. Kids complain all the time that what they need to do, or whats happened to them is not fair, to which most parents will respond, Life's not fair, so deal with it, and that is a true statement, I am not worried about making things fair, although this is one of Obamas main motivations in his economic plan. Its just a poor way of guiding our society.

I don't know who wants to build Church's with federal money or wanting religion to be taught in schools,you reading way to much into this.

Would you be against a group of students having a bible club on their own as a before or after school activity? Its a religious activity on government property? Thats the issue.
Other groups can do it, sports groups, gay and lesbian groups, etc. But not religious groups, so you see it is a issue of free speech, and an impediment to exercising freedom of religion, when they discriminate saying that most other groups can meet their but if its religious they can't.

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I think Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech are compatible. I don't think the government should be paying to build Churches, Temples or other religious buildings. If you want to build a Church, Temple, Mosque or whatever on say a college campus, get organized with others in your own religion and raise the money through your religion. We don't need the government to pay for houses of worship.

I agree 100%. I just am afraid that with the way it is written that if a school rents out auditorium to a religious group to use, then they have religious activities and get 0 funding. That is wrong to me. Now if the decision is made that since you get x amount from renting out for religious activities then your funding is reduced by x amount, I think that is fair. It allows more money to be used elsewhere without cutting all funding for those who do this.

[cobra bill]

J.T.
We are talking semantics here, of course there were people that took on debt that they could not afford, but that is but a small piece of the puzzle, this was all initiated back when the first financial bailout took place,with the savings and loan scandle, when the fed invented a way to bundle bad loans and re sell them all over the world, Allen Greenspan thought this was the best thing since the fork, and he was warned that it needed to be regulated and that it needed to have disclosures to go along with these bundled loans and Greenspan and the banking industry fought tooth and nail to prevent that from happening.
Then with further deregulation, easier access to loans that people could not afford and everyone that should have been watching and protecting us from this behavior was either complacent or just flat ignored it, the Clinton administration was warned as well as the Bush administration and all they did was ignore it.
So to say it was just the people that could not afford those loans is disingenuous, or just misinformation.

[J. T. Toad]

Steve,
just an example

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...02/ai_n9080735

C with a space B

We are not talking semantics. What you write IS the small piece of the puzzle, what I am saying is the SOCIETY has over spent with no regard as to the ramifications of such actions. If there is no money now, how is creating more money by trading future monies for unchecked spending now going to help?

Saying what I wrote is disingenuous or misinformation is ignorant, especially since you argue that we are in a semantic battle. (IOW semantic arguments have the same opinion but argue out the language, thus, saying the same thing... IOW look in the mirror) Are you saying that someone who defaults on a loan is pursuing an "affordable" option? Laughable. As cold as it might seem, for someone who follows socialists inclinations, a default on a loan means the payor couldn't afford it.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

Steve,
just an example

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...02/ai_n9080735

JT,
Yep, I consider that pretty despicable. That school should be required to return any funds taken.

I would be willing to allow clubs or religious groups to use public buildings for meeting places provided that they all follow the same rules, and that all groups are allowed to use those facilities on a first come first served basis.

Razor,
The religious effect in the US is no where near as extreme as in some other countries, but it does exist. I just read about this one the other day:
http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stori...ard_faces_test
There are MANY more situations exactly like this.

We swear on Bibles, pledge allegiance to the flag of a nation under some invisible guy, anybody who uses our money can see that we trust that same invisible guy, scientific principles are ignored in order to allow for teaching religious alternatives to science, and people adorn our public buildings with religious items.

Steve