Free speech.....war comming....

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

That is my point. Most times the people are not being forced, but just witnessing someone praying. Unfortunately in the public school I went to, if you did not pray, you were ridiculed, embarrassed, and made to feel like an evil person if you did not pray. It was the teachers and administration doing this. I myself didn't have a problem with praying, and I used to laugh at those who went through this. I look back now and it is a regret I have from my youth.

Just to be clear, I do not believe this is the norm. This is an isolated incident, but it only takes isolated incidents for knee jerk reactions to take place where everything is banned to silence a squeaky wheel.

I remember being in elementary school reciting the pledge of allegiance every day, but by the time I was a senior in high school (in 1982), the students in my homeroom would only bother to stand up for the pledge. If you actually put your hand on your heart or said the words the other kids would look at you like you were from another planet. Peer pressure!

The only way that I think prayer would be fair in schools would be to vary the religion used every day. That way the kids can be exposed to various cultures, listen to and optionally join in prayer from various dominations of Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Paganism, Ancient Greek Gods, Ancient Egyptian Gods, Hindu, Islam, Satan Worship, Heaven's Gate Suicide Cult, Agnosticism, Atheism, the Force from Star Wars, etc. I think I would actually be OK with that. I bet a lot of the people who want prayer back in school would be completely against the idea of making pray fair to all students in a way that students would not be ridiculed or embarrassed by their religion or lack of one.

I think Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech are compatible. I don't think the government should be paying to build Churches, Temples or other religious buildings. If you want to build a Church, Temple, Mosque or whatever on say a college campus, get organized with others in your own religion and raise the money through your religion. We don't need the government to pay for houses of worship.

If you want your family praying, do whatever works with your religion. You can take them to church, temple or whatever on the appropriate day of the week. Get them involved with some sort of religious group through your house of worship. Say grace at meals and say daily prayers. Read to your family from whatever religious text applies in your case. Take your kids to Sunday school. Join a Bible study group. Go on a religious retreat. There is plenty of opportunity to do all this without trying to get the government or it's public schools to endorse your personal choice of religion. You don't need to fall back on your laziness of exposing your kids to religion by expecting public schools to do it for you. And if you really need your kids exposed to your brand of religion in school, there are perfectly good private religious schools that can do that for you.

Nobody is attacking freedom of religion or your freedom of speech when the government does not fund or endorse your religion. Actually having the government not endorse or fund your religion seems to be exactly what it should be doing to ensure that we have these freedoms.

[RAZOR]

1ntCobra, First of all how do you measure fair, and unfair I notice this is a word the liberals use a lot. I know how to measure right and wrong, legal and illegal,even equitable and inequitable, but FAIR is just too ambiguous, and the desire to make life fair is unattainable, because of its ambiguity. Kids complain all the time that what they need to do, or whats happened to them is not fair, to which most parents will respond, Life's not fair, so deal with it, and that is a true statement, I am not worried about making things fair, although this is one of Obamas main motivations in his economic plan. Its just a poor way of guiding our society.

I don't know who wants to build Church's with federal money or wanting religion to be taught in schools,you reading way to much into this.

Would you be against a group of students having a bible club on their own as a before or after school activity? Its a religious activity on government property? Thats the issue.
Other groups can do it, sports groups, gay and lesbian groups, etc. But not religious groups, so you see it is a issue of free speech, and an impediment to exercising freedom of religion, when they discriminate saying that most other groups can meet their but if its religious they can't.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RAZOR

1ntCobra, First of all how do you measure fair, and unfair I notice this is a word the liberals use a lot. I know how to measure right and wrong, legal and illegal,even equitable and inequitable, but FAIR is just too ambiguous, and the desire to make life fair is unattainable, because of its ambiguity. Kids complain all the time that what they need to do, or whats happened to them is not fair, to which most parents will respond, Life's not fair, so deal with it, and that is a true statement, I am not worried about making things fair, although this is one of Obamas main motivations in his economic plan. Its just a poor way of guiding our society.

I don't know who wants to build Church's with federal money or wanting religion to be taught in schools,you reading way to much into this.

Would you be against a group of students having a bible club on their own as a before or after school activity? Its a religious activity on government property? Thats the issue.
Other groups can do it, sports groups, gay and lesbian groups, etc. But not religious groups, so you see it is a issue of free speech, and an impediment to exercising freedom of religion, when they discriminate saying that most other groups can meet their but if its religious they can't.

Please try avoiding the word "Obama" in your post, it just makes me angry.

Hmm, I always thought that separation of church and state was a good way to ensure freedom of religion. We don't have a government chosen and sponsored religion. Why do you want to bring a religious activity to a government building? Doesn't your church offer after school religious activities? Mine does. If your church is too cheap or you are not active enough in it to arrange such an activity at your church, perhaps you should pick a different church? Use your church to support your choice of religion. I don't use my church to teach my kids math, science or reading. You certainly still have freedom of religion and freedom of speech when you practice your religion outside of government buildings. I don't see bible studies going on at work, but some employers that I have worked for have had bowling, soccer and softball leagues. Is my employer interfering with my freedom of religion or my freedom of speech? I don't see it that way.

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Please try avoiding the word "Obama" in your post, it just makes me angry.

Hmm, I always thought that separation of church and state was a good way to ensure freedom of religion. We don't have a government chosen and sponsored religion. Why do you want to bring a religious activity to a government building? Doesn't your church offer after school religious activities? Mine does. If your church is too cheap or you are not active enough in it to arrange such an activity at your church, perhaps you should pick a different church? Use your church to support your choice of religion. I don't use my church to teach my kids math, science or reading. You certainly still have freedom of religion and freedom of speech when you practice your religion outside of government buildings. I don't see bible studies going on at work, but some employers that I have worked for have had bowling, soccer and softball leagues. Is my employer interfering with my freedom of religion or my freedom of speech? I don't see it that way.

Just curious why does the mention of Obama make you mad?

You didn't answer my question directly, but I infer from your employer analogy that a its alright to refuse a bible club, by the way does your employer deny you the right to have a bible club, on your own time? Just using your analogy. So a group of kids want to get together before or after school and pray, no doctrine taught, no church name,but you don't think they can do this, right? The gay-lesbians, the environmental group, the young democrats, republicans, and socialist can, but the religious kids can't. Please tell me If this is not your position.

You keep going all over about what is the real issue, a church too cheap, yea that a real valid point
Keep focused.

Could you define what you think, separation of church and state is? And what law or historical writing do you base your opinion on. I don't know where I said I was for it or against it, I was asking you questions and you seem to assume a lot.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by RAZOR

Just curious why does the mention of Obama make you mad?

You didn't answer my question directly, but I infer from your employer analogy that a its alright to refuse a bible club, by the way does your employer deny you the right to have a bible club, on your own time? Just using your analogy. So a group of kids want to get together before or after school and pray, no doctrine taught, no church name,but you don't think they can do this, right? The gay-lesbians, the environmental group, the young democrats, republicans, and socialist can, but the religious kids can't. Please tell me If this is not your position.

You keep going all over about what is the real issue, a church too cheap, yea that a real valid point
Keep focused.

Could you define what you think, separation of church and state is? And what law or historical writing do you base your opinion on. I don't know where I said I was for it or against it, I was asking you questions and you seem to assume a lot.

Obama. Maybe I should give the slick talking snake oil salesman a chance...

When I was in high school you needed a teacher to be involved in after school activities. And we did not have political groups, gay groups or religious groups. We had sports, photography club, chess club, computer club, mathletes. When you get a teacher involved in a school group, that just seems like you are getting the public school and therefore the government mixed up in religion. In your school system, can have an after school activity without a school teacher involved?

I don't know whether employers deny bible study groups. At my previous employer there was a group of employees that was involved in a bible study group. They did not meet at the office, they would get together in the privacy of members homes.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by J. T. Toad

Steve,
just an example

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...02/ai_n9080735

JT,
Yep, I consider that pretty despicable. That school should be required to return any funds taken.

I would be willing to allow clubs or religious groups to use public buildings for meeting places provided that they all follow the same rules, and that all groups are allowed to use those facilities on a first come first served basis.

Razor,
The religious effect in the US is no where near as extreme as in some other countries, but it does exist. I just read about this one the other day:
http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stori...ard_faces_test
There are MANY more situations exactly like this.

We swear on Bibles, pledge allegiance to the flag of a nation under some invisible guy, anybody who uses our money can see that we trust that same invisible guy, scientific principles are ignored in order to allow for teaching religious alternatives to science, and people adorn our public buildings with religious items.

Steve

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I think Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech are compatible. I don't think the government should be paying to build Churches, Temples or other religious buildings. If you want to build a Church, Temple, Mosque or whatever on say a college campus, get organized with others in your own religion and raise the money through your religion. We don't need the government to pay for houses of worship.

I agree 100%. I just am afraid that with the way it is written that if a school rents out auditorium to a religious group to use, then they have religious activities and get 0 funding. That is wrong to me. Now if the decision is made that since you get x amount from renting out for religious activities then your funding is reduced by x amount, I think that is fair. It allows more money to be used elsewhere without cutting all funding for those who do this.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Joe Wicked

I agree 100%. I just am afraid that with the way it is written that if a school rents out auditorium to a religious group to use, then they have religious activities and get 0 funding. That is wrong to me. Now if the decision is made that since you get x amount from renting out for religious activities then your funding is reduced by x amount, I think that is fair. It allows more money to be used elsewhere without cutting all funding for those who do this.

I would agree to that as well, provided that all religions that want it have access to the facilities. If there is more demand then a lottery gets set up, and priority goes to the non-religious groups first.

And I would say that private employers/facility owners have the right to refuse whomever they want.

[RAZOR]

Tell me how do we reconcile this with whats going on now?

"When Washington D.C. became the national capital in 1800, Congress voted that the Capitol building would also serve as a church building. President Thomas Jefferson, chose to attend church each Sunday at the Capitol and even provided the services with paid government musicians to assist in its worship."
James Hudson, Chief of the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress:Religion and the Founding of the American Republic(Washington D.C.:Library of Congress, 1998)p.84

Jefferson, the person who wrote the phrase "wall of separation", how could this be? Perhaps we don't have a full understanding of what his position.
Strange this is certainly not taught in American History today.Why is that?

[VRM]

Razor, that is absolutely true. However, it actually fits in pretty well. The services held at the Capitol building were multi-denominational. They had a number of different people from a variety of faiths leading the services. There was no single religion being elevated above any other, and public resources were shared between faiths.

Steve

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by VRM

Razor, that is absolutely true. However, it actually fits in pretty well. The services held at the Capitol building were multi-denominational. They had a number of different people from a variety of faiths leading the services. There was no single religion being elevated above any other, and public resources were shared between faiths.

Steve

Were not they all Christain ?

I don't remember ever reading reading about them dragging out the (prayer) rugs.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by 392cobra

Were not they all Christain ?

I don't remember ever reading reading about them dragging out the (prayer) rugs.

They were not all Christian. Unitarian services were one of the more frequent types held. They, like Muslims, do think Jesus existed, but that he was just a prophet and not an actual deity himself.

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by VRM

They were not all Christian. Unitarian services were one of the more frequent types held. They, like Muslims, do think Jesus existed, but that he was just a prophet and not an actual deity himself.

I don't believe that.
Seeing as how the Unitarian's do not even believe in God,I can't even consider it a religion.More like a cult of self worship.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by 392cobra

I don't believe that.
Seeing as how the Unitarian's do not even believe in God,I can't even consider it a religion.More like a cult of self worship.

Well then it gives me great pleasure to tell you that a congregation of those evil godless heathen Unitarians also held regular services in the Capitol building. (along with a handful of other congregations)

What you choose to believe or accept does not change what happened.

The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers.

Steve

[cobra de capell]