China ships harrasing US Naval ships in international waters

[Fred Douglass]

...if y'all don't want to rub a BB in their faces, then maybe surfacing one of our attack subs in the middle of their harrassment-fleet WOULD do the trick. Being a stodgy old romantic and a hyper-Rightie, I'd STILL maintain that an Iowa would do the trick. Gotta stick it RIGHT in their faces (or asses, if I can believe the story).

Next time we get a Republican like Ronnie R. back in the White House, we should bring back those Iowas--they're immortal, in terms of hull- and weapons-integrity. Of course, by the time CONSERVATIVE Republicans (and the last real one was the afore-mentioned RR) retake 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. and a majority of Congress' two houses, we'll all be living on, or commuting to, Mars! Whatcha guess, AD 2503?



Ar-ar-ar.

[Joe Wicked]

Probably right Fred. Really scare the **** out of them though if we started surfacing subs all around them. First one would scare them, 2nd would really get their attention, 3rd would have them 2nd guessing, 4th one would have them worried, 5th or 6th would make them crap their pants.

[SP01715]

When I was a scout in the Army one of my dreams was to call in naval gunfire. Never got the chance operating in Iraq, but "Big Mo" did pound some positions in Kuwait. Gives a whole new meaning to "danger close"...

[Fred Douglass]

...and I was only calling in 5". However, naval gunfire is FLAT TRAJECTORY, so, even from 7 or 10 miles out, the stuff rarely is more than 30-40 feet overhead. If you call them "down the pipe", they're VISIBLE.

We used to "pickle the ridge" on ______________ in the Caribbean, and this sent dirt up 2200+ feet, just far enuff for the Iowa BBs' FC radar to get the image, so far over the horizon's "dip" were they! When 6 or so 16" shells came in, the dirt went A LOT higher! We uster have to go in and find the UE "duds", set 'em up with a nifty little electronic lash-up and then screw off the island before the timed "zap" detonated them. We were usually 1/2 mile off the beach when that happened. Holy Shyte! If stuff started to come down near the motor whaleboat, we'd stop her, bail out and hide underneath......

I still maintain the Iowas are just the thing for showing the flag. Really majestic ships. Just glorious, especially laden down to their Plimsoll marks--makes 'em look a mile long!

[SP01715]

I can only imagine being close (considering "danger close" is within 1000 meters) to the impact area of 16" shells when "fire for effect" is called. I was a few miles from some B-52 strikes in Iraq, and it was scarry. Awesome, but scarry. Gotta love American firepower.

[Fred Douglass]

.......repeat, RADIUS of a 5" 38 cal HE shell is 1000 yards. Depending on ground penetration, it's much shorter for a 5" shell landing on dirt. On rock........h-m-m-m-m-m.

As for a 16", ya might want to be one time-zone away. Those "small" bursts you see on Iwo or, later, Inchon are after mega penetration (20 feet min.). They couldn't fuse them for surface burst. Only VTF, and then they got air-bursts. They wanted to "dig the enemy out" at both sites. Best spot for a 16" is a solid rock plateau---THEN you'd see sumpin!!!!

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Fred Douglass

.......repeat, RADIUS of a 5" 38 cal HE shell is 1000 yards. Depending on ground penetration, it's much shorter for a 5" shell landing on dirt. On rock........h-m-m-m-m-m.

As for a 16", ya might want to be one time-zone away. Those "small" bursts you see on Iwo or, later, Inchon are after mega penetration (20 feet min.). They couldn't fuse them for surface burst. Only VTF, and then they got air-bursts. They wanted to "dig the enemy out" at both sites. Best spot for a 16" is a solid rock plateau---THEN you'd see sumpin!!!!

Well I guess I am lucky then that I did not call in any naval gunfire. We had danger close brackets for different stuff we were calling in, and naval gunfire was 1000 meters. They never did make a distinction though between the different size guns on the navy ships.

[Fred Douglass]

The 16"x 45, which is Gawd-knows-what mm's and the 5" which is roughly equivalent to a 105mm. The REAL difference is in the flat trajectory----mv for BOFE is in the neighborhood of 3000 fps. That's just a little slower than an M-16 round. REPEAT: the standard three-bag load of unfixed ammo in the 16"x45 cal. is good for a mv of c. 2850 fps! You CAN load four bags and exceed 3000.

Naval HE shells contain a wicked concoction of gelignite (Sp?) which uster be known as "Torpex". 'Way explosive. Torpex is for torpedoes, as you know. When either delay-fused or AP fused that crap can build up a wicked "temper". Great for not only cratering airfields but bunker-busting. Since the 16" shell weighs 2300 lbs. but "only" contains around 150 lbs. of Torpex----the rest is frag. Yummee! Take down about an acre of trees, or fused to go off 25+ feet el. take out hundreds of people. Send 'em home in a ring-box!!!!

ALL naval projectiles are inertially armed----good to go only when fired. But drop one on the deck.....h-m-m-m-m! Did that once. Rotated the gun-turret (bow-most "mount 51", thank Gawd) which allowed us to plop it over the rail directly from the man-hatch at the back of the mount. Of course the location was then marked on charts as "UE Ordinance"----and broadcast in a notice to mariners beforehand.

This crap made me deaf, but I loved it.

[SP01715]

Good info. The next time I am in Hawaii I need to go on Big Mo. I have seen her from a distance there a couple times, but I have never been on her.

[Fred Douglass]

.......the old Mighty Mo is in sad need of repair (which goes a bit beyond "maintenance"). Also, while I was aboard, the "docent" (which is weirdese for "museum guide") was yammering on with ALL types of misinformation.....

The ship itself is absolutely mind-boggling. The only limitations imposed upon her design (wrongly, in my humble view) were the Panama-canal-dictated beam (106') and the length----if they'd thrown caution to the winds they could have made the Iowas like the projected (but never built) Montana class. I don't know the beam stats on them, but they were going to have FOUR triple 16" mounts and upwards of TWENTY AA/Dual Purpose 5" twin mounts.

The other thing, when you're there, is to go 'way up to the bow and look back (yikes!) and then north, at the Arizona memorial. You sort of see the entire course of the war----its start (for us) and its end. When you're on the Arizona, find the name "Horrocks"----this was the father of one of my gunner's mates! He told me that his old man died on the Arizona (and is still there!) when he himself was 2 (if I remember correctly).

In all, the whole display is worthy of a full day. We only spent 4 hours and should have spent 'way more. Thanks to Ron61, quite a few of photos got posted. (It'll save ya airfare---ar-ar-ar). Seriously, one thing well-worth a few hours is the base museum. Just the models alone are breath-taking. The view toward the southwest takes in Battleship Row from under the swaying palms. After getting home, I finished reading Michener's "Hawaii" but also got into several books on Pearl Harbor (most from the United States Naval Institute publications list---incidentally, and EXCELLENT site to visit).

If you (any of you) get a chance, get a copy of Kemp Tolley's "Cruise of the Lanikai--Incitement to War". It's like something out of a romantic south seas adventure movie! The Lanikai was purchased and commissioned in a matter of days, just before the Phillippines were attacked. The point (which is clear from the title) was that FDR wanted, and in his view, politically NEEDED, the Japanese to attack some "expendable" US asset. He wanted to chum them in with this 85-foot clunker of an inter-island schooner. In fact, FDR got 'way more than he bargained for and Tolley and his crew escaped and got down to Australia after threading through the Dutch East Indies (Java, Bali, etc.) JUST as they were being attacked!!!! A great read!

Karioke,

[427 S/O]

'Direct fire' at 900 meters with my 8'' self propelled in nam is, and will always be, beyond awesome. Even had the base plate on one round bounce back to the battery.

[SP01715]

Fred, another good post with some good info. I have been to the Arizona twice. I will have to look for the name you posted in my pictures. Standing over the Arizona on the memorial is awe inspiring. The drops of oil still leaking from her and rising to the surface. The flowers floating in the water that people throw over her. The whole experience is something every American should do.

427, Before the ground war (at least the official ground war because we were in Iraq weeks before) in the first Gulf War we had MLRS shooting over our position on the border and into Iraq. It was insane to stand there and watch hundreds of rockets fly over us and impact beyond our view. We could see the flashes in the sky, but not the direct point of impact.

Indirect fire is some scarry stuff. The Iraqi's fired some shells at us when we were clearing a building on the border, and it's scarry not being able to see where the stuff is being fired from.

[Sharroll Celby]

Just tell the Chinese that whenever they harass one of our ships, they forgive one-half of our debt. As of right now, we owe them half of what we owed them last week.

After all, Al Capone was put in jail NOT for bank robbery and/or murder, but tax evasion.

[Fred Douglass]

......is just flat BRILLIANT! Due to advanced calcification, me brine is no longer able to come up with such epiphones (whatever they are....)!

[Ron61]

We need the Mo and another Iowa class in New York with their guns trained on Washington D.C. Just to protect the president and Congress mind you.

Ron

[Wayne Maybury]

Anyone that thinks that the Chinese will be a push over are sadly mistaken, at least according to the following. They are probably still far behind the US from a technology point of view but they are spending lots of money.

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/2009.htm

Wayne

[Ron61]

Wayne,

I don't think anyone thinks they would be a push over and they aren't spending any more than Russia is. Plus the Russian planes and subs are more advanced than even some of ours. Notice the headlines every day or so it seems some Russian Bombers have been flying over or around our ships. Looks like they are trying to start the Cold War days over.

Ron

[jams]

Do you think Chinese ships are smaller since Chinese people are much shorter than Americans?

[427 S/O]

Ron, no way Russia's armament is more advanced than ours. It would be mind boggling if we could see what our boys have or working on. imo....

[Ron61]

Perry,

I never said all of their stuff was advanced over ours but what they have in service and what we are working on is to different things. Plus they have almost a 2 to 1 superiority in subs and other things. What we have on the drawing board and are testing won't help much if we have to have it right now. Such as the new advanced fighter that crashed a day or so ago. How long before it will actually be of any real value, due to having to be tested and then modified and built? I know that you are still involved in that stuff and I am not any more, but I do know from my distant past the military always gets first shot at most new technology. It is the time to perfect it and make it actually operational and useful that we seem to lag in. Russia has no concern for the safety of their pilots and men so they just push new stuff right out and into service while we spend time trying to make it as safe as possible. I do like some of the new unmanned drones, but the one that made the completely uncontrolled flight to London and back just on the computer program and with no human at the control panel was impressive. But they will still need a human to make a final decision and any more with no real armies in uniforms, how can even a person be sure who is enemy and who is friendly? I believe out tanks are definitely superior, but I fear the next war won't be with tanks and conventional bombs unless we can reign in the people like that inbred maniac in North Korea.
I believe it was Einstein that said, "I am not sure what World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

Ron