Hillbillies too stupid?

[Cobrabill]

Last month, Toyota made a decision that didn't get a lot of press, but
sent ripples of concern through state houses across the South.

The Japanese auto giant announced that it was going to bypass offers of
hundreds of millions of dollars in "recruitment incentives" (corporate
subsidies) from several Southern states, and would instead set up shop
in Ontario, Canada, which was offering much fewer give-away's.

The decision to head north was an embarrassment for Southern states
eagerly competing to lure Toyota, on several levels. Not only did they
lose a trophy job-creator for their state.. But the reason Toyota gave
for the move was especially damning:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training
program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a
Toyota plant before, is "minimal" compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of
the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double
[the] subsidy [Southern states were offering]. But Fedchun said much of
that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs
than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new
plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama
due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce.

In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

Starting with Alabama’s successful bid to lure a Mercedes plant in 1992
with an incentive package that eventually cost over $300 million in tax
breaks and other give-away's — while the state's education system was
under court order for lack of funding — Southern states have shoveled
billions of dollars to huge foreign automakers, turning the South into
the "new Detroit."

But now companies are waking up to the limitations of locating in a
state that cares more about handing out tax breaks than investing in
its people.

Unfortunately, state leaders haven't caught on —
indeed, states like North Carolina expanded their corporate give-away programs in the last legislative session.

[Wayne Maybury]

More cars were produced in Ontario than were produced in Michigan, last year. The recent economic downturn which resulted in car sales tanking, has hit Ontario very hard as they depend so heavily on the automotive industry. Of course, who hasn't been hit hard recently?

Wayne

[Wes Tausend]

...

Check out this Feb 16, 2009 article by Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek. Yeah, I know some have a current problem with a name like "Fareed Zakaria".

America is still the greatest. Apparently it is a little further north than many thought.

Wes

...

[427 S/O]

Oops!........

[trularin]

Most of the manufacturing is done outside the US.

We just design them and try to get all of the pieces married.

[Wayne Maybury]

Chrysler is considering closing up shop in Canada and moving all production to the US if it cannot get major wage concessions from the Canadian auto workers so everything isn't rosy in Ontario.

Wayne

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Chrysler is considering closing up shop in Canada and moving all production to the US if it cannot get major wage concessions from the Canadian auto workers so everything isn't rosy in Ontario.

Wayne

Wayne,

Do they believe the UAW are going to offer much in the way of concessions? I've attempted to hire a number of employees (people to power wash cars before they come in the building for bodywork or paint) recently who have stated "I'd rather be on unemployment than have to work so hard". It's this mental attitude that is the problem, worse with the union members who feel "entitled" to everything they get now......

[Ron61]

Bill,

That is the attitude of the Give Me Everything Generation we now have. They want everything but don't want to work at all. Sad!!

Ron

[Wayne Maybury]

Bill

I was talking to a friend the other day and we figured that we could perform many jobs in an auto assmbly plant with a couple of hours of training and virtually any job there with a week's training and "experience" on the line. These people are being very well paid for a job that really doesn't require all that much skill.

Isn't it strange that a person can continue to collect unemployment insurance when they could be employed? I always thought that unemployment insurance was for people that couldn't find a job, that for those that didn't want to work. By the way, the same thing is going on up here.

Wayne

[TINNMANN]

I agree with Wayne I am a trades man and have to keep up all my tickets ie. gas, refrigeration, electrical, and sheet metal and pay fees for each which allows me to make less than a autoworker. When I need work I have to beat the bushes for a job unlike autoworkers who can sit at home and collect 80% of their wages and full benifits because they are entitled to it. Am I BITTER, YOU BET!!! It is a small wonder they are in the shape they are in and it is time for a reality check like what Chrysler is saying to the Canadian autoworkers. The amount of training that I have to take to keep up with new equipment and control systems is eating up more and more time but I have to keep up and I don't get paid to do it unlike the autoworkers. Instead I build a car for myself and as we all know it takes far more skill than working on a assembly line.
RANT OVER
Cheers Greg

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Bill

I was talking to a friend the other day and we figured that we could perform many jobs in an auto assmbly plant with a couple of hours of training and virtually any job there with a week's training and "experience" on the line. These people are being very well paid for a job that really doesn't require all that much skill.

Isn't it strange that a person can continue to collect unemployment insurance when they could be employed? I always thought that unemployment insurance was for people that couldn't find a job, that for those that didn't want to work. By the way, the same thing is going on up here.

Wayne

Wayne,

I think the problem is that everybody thinks their job is more important and more difficult. That tends to include you and me and just about everybody else in this Lounge.

None of our jobs are "rocket science". Yet most of us enjoy a decent wage. I will venture to say that any job can be done with about 6 months OJT max if the "warm body" has any aptitude at all. Certainly mine; that's how we're trained. Probably yours. College might offer a "well rounded" background but it is completely un-necessary for just about everything IMHO.

So even rocket science isn't a day-to-day, hair pulling task. Anybody comfortable with math can do it. Brain surgery could be done after 6 months OJT, although I am probably not alone when I say I would much prefer my "mechanic" have more experience. There are guys that practice law after reading a few prison library books until "job protection" kicks in when they try to represent someone other than themselves. I once mentioned that postal workers would be paid the same as newspaper delivery boys if not for their union. JoeG came back and said, "...With the post ofice broke and mail delivery needs getting less every year, why not let the homeless deliver the mail. LETS ge real, paying 40 -50 grand a year to deliver mail-- let part timer's or highschool kids do it. ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE and... ".
Well ...what Joe said is true. But, if we were to be honest, it is likely true for all our jobs; we don't do rocket science. None of us.

The one exception to "easy" jobs might be that of a musician. And yet, barring prodigy, 6 months can get an able warm body to play just about any instrument. Not as well as 6 years might do, granted. And that part is true of most jobs that require any skill at all. So I assume that you are regarding all UAW as unskilled menial work. But not all of it is, less and less as robotics take the helm. I worked in a factory as an Expeditor for a while. Easy job, of course. I was able to observe ...even assembly begans to look like an art when done well. A smooth flow of motion, hour after hour, not unlike a musician that never takes a break after only 3 pieces.

Some other UAW jobs are grueling.
Like the welders with 50 pounds of "safety leather" "brushing" out a bead in 120 degree F heat like Picasso might wield his brush. Or maybe the punch press operators slamming out sheet after sheet, modern day blacksmiths with considerably more violence, noise and danger. Perhaps the painters, when enamel was still in use instead of powder-coat. Try waving your arm above your shoulder with a heavy haz-mat suit carrying a gun and hose. Now try it hour after hour. It paid better, so some always bid the job. Inevitable carpal tunnel after a few years, but hey, these guys had families to raise and some were willing to go the extra mile. My buddy works in machine shop. Skills moved from reading a micrometer for a lathe or chucker to programming several Mazaks running at once. Now he sweats moving many part and material trays ...hour after hour.

For those Americans that think they are merely "paid what they're worth" by their boss. Get real.
This is true in Mexico. This is also true in China. Not just manufacturing, but your job too. The odds of a "benevolent dictator" like Henry Ford willingly paying his workers enough to buy the product are pretty rare. Middleclass is pretty rare. The Labor Class, aka Middleclass, usually has to "ask"; or benefit unaware from somebody else "asking".

I think there has been a general trend for factory workers to back off piece count. Many procedures have changed to prevent unsafe or back-breaking tasks, so, yes, the work has gotten easier. I also suspect a lot of UAW workers would like to trade us even-up for our jobs and salary. Most of the folks I met on the "line" in ND were a standard cross-cut of intelligence; they could do it no problem. Food for thought.

Wes

...

[Ron61]

Wes,

While I agree with you for the most part, there are some fields that you can't be trained for in a few weeks and some people could never learn to do the work. Take CW and Jamo for instance. They not only have to know all the little stuff but have to continually be learning every new thing that comes along, and believe me, in this age progress is measured in minutes not months.
I no longer count, but when I was working I was taking classes all the time on new stuff and having to pass tests to get my FCC licenses and other qualification certificates for stuff that I worked on. After I retired I just quit as it is to much work to keep up with the minute by minute changes and the only license I still have is my 1st class FCC one which I intend to keep.

Ron

[Jamo]

Hell, I'm beyond that.

I don't read the law...I make it up as I go. Much easier.

Obviously, there are different levels of continued education needed in different fields. Folks who repair/service newer cars (versus those who build them), for example, have a heavy burden of keeping up on changes/techniques. My brother (a GM service manager) attends more continuing education than I do.

[Ron61]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Hell, I'm beyond that.

I don't read the law...I make it up as I go. Much easier.

Our next president.

Ron

[Bartruff1]

The Civil War was a mistake...we should have let them go and we still should.

[Ronbo]

I kinda doubt the Tennesee hillbillies are any worse than the West Virginia hillbillies that worked at the Ford / Chevy plants back home in Cleveland...

Perhaps it's time to let the fargin Japs know we're to stupid to buy their cars as well.

We should've turned Patton loose on those bastiges...

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Wayne,

I think the problem is that everybody thinks their job is more important and more difficult. That tends to include you and me and just about everybody else in this Lounge.

None of our jobs are "rocket science". Yet most of us enjoy a decent wage. I will venture to say that any job can be done with about 6 months OJT max if the "warm body" has any aptitude at all. Certainly mine; that's how we're trained. Probably yours. College might offer a "well rounded" background but it is completely un-necessary for just about everything IMHO.

Wes

...

Wes

I wasn't trying to belittle the work that the UAW workers do, I was indicating that they are very well paid for the skills they require and the work they do. I also indicated that I was referring to the line workers in a car assembly plant, not at the parts suppliers. Much of the assembly operations are run by machines and/or robots now. Painting is a good example of robots doing the job today.

I hold an MBA from a world renown university and I probably do not make more money than the average UAW worker. I know that I certainly do not have the benefits that they have. For example our plant will be shutting down for a few weeks due to the recession and management will have to either take time off with no pay or take paid vacation

Wayne

[4RE KLR]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Our next president.

Ron

Ron,
You beat me to it.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Wes

I wasn't trying to belittle the work that the UAW workers do, I was indicating that they are very well paid for the skills they require and the work they do. I also indicated that I was referring to the line workers in a car assembly plant, not at the parts suppliers. Much of the assembly operations are run by machines and/or robots now. Painting is a good example of robots doing the job today.

I hold an MBA from a world renown university and I probably do not make more money than the average UAW worker. I know that I certainly do not have the benefits that they have. For example our plant will be shutting down for a few weeks due to the recession and management will have to either take time off with no pay or take paid vacation

Wayne

I know, Wayne. I was just trying to put things in another perspective.

I firmly believe in the value of a college education. A successful degree is one way to prove you have the aptitude ...and a proper background can be priceless. But, if I were to call a "spade a spade", a major traditional value of a degree is being of the same "papered" brotherhood as the job interviewer. Even better is having attended the same institution. In the end, the day-to-day real operation of most jobs are actually learned OJT. And it is a continuing process for all of us.

I suggest some of the perspective is thus:
You probably do not make any less than the average UAW worker ...because they make what they do. This is a difficult concept for many corporate indoctrinated to grasp, but labor unions have affected the entire compensation of an American class of population known as the middleclass, whether they belong to a union or not. If you're not at the top, and you're not at the bottom, then you are a brother in the destiny of the middleclass.

The time off you speak of, with no pay, may in fact be paid because of the labor movement. It will be called "vacation". Most think of it as an entitlement already, but think whence it came. This, in keeping with my assertion that, 'The Labor Class, aka Middleclass, usually has to "ask"; or benefit unaware from somebody else "asking".' Asking, negotiating, for them. Not just in the same factory, but your doctor, your dentist, your lawyer. The healthy middleclass is the root source of their compensation, too.

There is no doubt that some segments, such as UAW, have negotiated extraordinarily favorable compensation. They, like you and I, work hard to "row the boat". They want a major share of the good times. They don't want to share the bad times; particularily when it appears the main reason is somebody else was asleep at the tiller, beyond their control.

There is also likely some upper corporate management (class) above you that has negotiated similar superior compensation. I once worked in lower/middle corporate management and this merciless squeeze from both sides is evident. I stood at the bottom of the hill for that which rolled down. I was the handiest management-post to serve the whims of some crude and disrespectful members of labor. But I know why I am paid as I am.

The secret is to eventually balance the control of corporate "unions" with the labor "unions" and try to save the wonderful concept known as the middleclass. Selfish greed has no boundaries. It is not a matter of good or bad, but of reality. At least that's the way I see it.

Wes

...

[Wayne Maybury]

Wes

Well said. I am what would be commonly known as middle management. In reality, very often middle management work very hard for the compensation they receive. They are the ones that really know what is going on day-to-day in an organization but they tend to be vulnerable since they are neither part of upper management nor a union. Upper management makes sure that they take very good care of themselves (AIG is a good example) while the workers on the floor are generally well protected by their union.

Wayne