10 Cars That Sank Detroit

[Wayne Maybury]

What kills me about that list is the reference to GM and Chrysler following Ford's lead with the Explorer. They completely disregard the fact that Toyota, Honda, and everyone else also followed with their own versions of the Explorer.

By today's standards, the quality of cars built in the 60's or 70's was very poor not only for the Big 3 but for all of the Japanese cars and many of the Europeans cars as well. Toyota's quality recently started to drop off as their market share got close to GM's.

Wayne

[1ntCobra]

My local mechanic had an interesting thought on where quality was going. He claimed that with a lot of parts being sourced from various suppliers around the globe these days that was sort of equalizing quality. Japanese cars not having as high of quality as they used to and American cars coming up in quality. Sort of meeting in the middle. That sounds like bean counters buying adequate quality for the price winning out over engineering for really good quality.

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

... deleted some stuff ...

Toyota's quality recently started to drop off as their market share got close to GM's.

Wayne

[SP01715]

Must have been written by a Liberal if they are touting hybrids. Dealers can't get rid of hybrids now that gas prices have come down. IMO, the new diesel technology is a better car than a hybrid. The new Audi A3 and Volkswagen Jetta with the TDI are getting 45+ mpg average without all the expensive hybrid technology that is constantly changing.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Ray,

There was a great lack of quality in some of the cars, but I think the management fell on their faces with the refusal to stop making those huge SUVs and other big gas hogs when the other car makers were making more fuel efficient vehicles. The this is what made us tons of money 10 years ago attitude I feel really hurt Detroit. It wasn't they couldn't make quality cars that were efficient and reasonable priced, it was more the stay with what sold big a few years ago attitude. Now GM can't even sell their Hummer division as no one wants it.

Ron

If they started putting diesels in their SUV's like the H2 they would be a more attractive option. I own a 2004 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax diesel that I love. I am getting 18-20 MPG with a 6" lift and 35's. The H2 would probably be in the mid 20's. I am retiring my truck to a tow vehicle this summer, but I am not going to sell it. I think people out there that don't tow or have the need for a large truck or SUV miss the point that they are very useful vehicles if you have a need for one.

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by SP01715

I think people out there that don't tow or have the need for a large truck or SUV miss the point that they are very useful vehicles if you have a need for one.

Around here you see soccer moms in H2s. The truck is never used for towing or hauling anything other than groceries or kids.

[427 S/O]

SPO, I agree with you about diesels, VW has the 'polo' in europe and it gets 60-70 mpg.
with a three cylinder, and I believe it has turbo?.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

SPO, I agree with you about diesels, VW has the 'polo' in europe and it gets 60-70 mpg.
with a three cylinder, and I believe it has turbo?.

Yep, europe has a lot of options when it comes to diesel vehicles. There is talk about more cars being available in the U.S. with diesels, hopefully it's true. My next car is either the Audi or VW.

[Speedysnake]

Doesn't anyone remember the "Unsafe At Any Speed" Corvair?

The trunk made a great beer cooler!

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

Remember the Pinto's catching fire? The shield that prevented the fires was supposedly a 5 cent part. The management at Ford at the time chose to save 5 cents and pay the insurance claims.

The Pinto that got this issue started was stooped dead on a freeway,had no gas tank cap,but a rag instead and was hit in excess of 50 mph.ANY rear tanked vehicle would have burned.

27 people dies in "Pinto fires".There were over 2 million Pintos built.This averages out to be in line with most other models.

Stop believing the media hype.


[quote=Wayne Maybury;
By today's standards, the quality of cars built in the 60's or 70's was very poor not only for the Big 3 but for all of the Japanese cars and many of the Europeans cars as well. Toyota's quality recently started to drop off as their market share got close to GM's.
Wayne[/QUOTE]

But by the mid-70's Japanese quality had overtaken Detroits.The big three had pissed off too many people.My Dad was one.He switched to Datsun and never looked back.

Originally Posted by Speedysnake

Doesn't anyone remember the "Unsafe At Any Speed" Corvair?The trunk made a great beer cooler!

Don't believe a word Nader says.If you knew how to drive a rear-engined car,there was nothing wrong with the Corvair.And BTW-it was the last innovative thing GM did.

[Jamo]

Euro-diesels are way beyond our diesel-think. A couple of years ago, we rented a turbo-diesel Land Rover Discovery and drove all over Wales and mid-England for a week. Absolutely perfectly mated to the task at hand...high speeds on the main highways, and great handling/torque in the Welsh mountains. As best as we could figure, and despite being fully loaded (four people and suitcases) with a heavy right foot, it was returning mid-20s day in and day out. No black smoke and no smell. We have nothing like that in our small to mid-sized SUVs or crossovers.

[Ron61]

And there are the Audi diesels running in the Le-Mans series. No smoke, not much noise, and the run darn fast. Also get better mileage according to the announcers than the other cars. I watched the St. Petersburg race last week I think it was and they really did well and I believe one of them won. Why can't we have diesel engines in our cars like they have in Europe?

Ron

[Joe Wicked]

I don't remember where, but I remember seeing something about the grade of diesel in the US being a problem with the euro diesel engines too. Something about they refine it more making it a cleaner burning diesel, but also more expensive. The trucking industry in the US is against anything that will raise the price of the diesel and have successfully blocked the very few attempts to improve the diesel. They were saying that is a big part of the smell and smoke.

I say if they want the crappier diesel that is harder on engines, let them have it. Have an auto grade and a truck grade diesel.

[Jamo]

Ron...that was the 12 Hours of Sebring, and the second generation of the Audi diesel race vehicle (R15), which won in its debut. The R10 diesel has been dominate for the past several years.

Joe...me thinks you're right, but I don't know if anything's changed.

[Ron61]

Jamo,

Thanks for the correction. I watched both of those races on TV and just got mixed up which one they won. I thought they did very well in both races and was impressed with their speed and torque. And from what a couple of people told me that went to the Sebring race, they don't have hardly any smell when in the pits. So why can't we have regular passenger cars with that kind of diesel engine as it seems to burn very clean?

Ron

[Jamo]

Audi's don't run in the Rolex Series.

Gasholes rented a box at Sebring when the R10 (the first Audi diesel after the gas R8 dominated for nearly a decade) ran away from everything...it was eerily quiet when it went by, no smoke and never broke. Peugeot [FTF] is not far behind.

[Ron61]

Ok, I am getting my series mixed up. I remember them talking about the Audi's getting ready for the 24 hour of LeMans and they were running them at Sebring, I think it was, to test some things on them. Either way, I was impressed with them.

Ron

[Cobrabill]

My friends BF has some type of VW with a diesel and drove from CT to Fla. recently.He averaged 55 MPG.I don't know his average speed.


Typo fixed.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

My friends BF has a some type of VW with a diesel and drove from CT to Fla. recently.He averaged 55 MPH.

Many states along that path have speed limits of 65 MPH.
Do you know what kind of gas mileage he got?

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Euro-diesels are way beyond our diesel-think. A couple of years ago, we rented a turbo-diesel Land Rover Discovery and drove all over Wales and mid-England for a week. Absolutely perfectly mated to the task at hand...high speeds on the main highways, and great handling/torque in the Welsh mountains. As best as we could figure, and despite being fully loaded (four people and suitcases) with a heavy right foot, it was returning mid-20s day in and day out. No black smoke and no smell. We have nothing like that in our small to mid-sized SUVs or crossovers.

Yep, more diesel options would be great. Audi is coming out with a diesel version of their SUV in 2010, should be a good vehicle.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

My friends BF has a some type of VW with a diesel and drove from CT to Fla. recently.He averaged 55 MPH.

That's probably the new TDI motor that is going in both the VW's and Audi's. I read one magazine where a couple took a long trip (I think something like 1400 miles) with the VW Jetta with the new TDI and they averaged 57mpg. The drove very conservatively, but that is still unreal gas mileage. The guys I talked to at VW said a realistic average for someone who drives both around town on on the highway is about 45 which is still very good.