Should anybody be charged with a crime for torture?

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Equally amusing to see the riech wing nut comments.

I was thinking of you when I changed my signature line.

[427 S/O]

I caught Imus this morning when he was talking to Bret baier, Imus praised FOX news for being fair and balanced, the went on to say if he wants to know what the communist are doing he'll tune in MSNBC, and commented CNN was a total waste........

Originally Posted by bomelia

I do not find it funny at all that you would compare Conservatives to Nazis. Your sense of humor is lacking.

Mike

[Ron61]

We have a woman here in Redding that has written into the paper three times in the past two weeks telling everyone that FOX is the only unbiased news in the world and that the reason they don't know what is going on is they pay attention to other networks. This paper is so biased I would swear it is owned and ran by CNN. Never anything local reported that is of any importance. And they just gush over Obama and every thing he says.

Ron

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by stengun

Howdy,

Being a left-wing nut job, I'm all for torture! Well, just as long as it Republicans and lawyers. Especially Republican lawyers!

Seriously. If a person/enemy/ terrorist/whomever has info and you know they have info, make them talk however/whatever you have to do to make them talk.

At the same time, why waterboard someone 183 times? Doesn't make any sense to me.

If they are a enemy combatant/terrorist, torture them. Get the info from them. Have a trial. If convicted, execute them. If not convicted, turn them loose. Don't hold them for years and years without a trial.

No need to torture them repeatedly. All info that they have is very time sensitive. Anything that they know will be useless within a few days.

At the same time, do you really think that a suicide bomber is going to talk? If he/she is a hard core zealot and is willing to give their life for the "Cause", I willing to bet that they will never tell you anything usefull. What do you think?

Waterboarding. It might not be physical torture, but it sure is psychological torture. That's why it works so good.

Paul

The whole idea of "intelligence" is to extract EVERYTHING he knows. All knowledge is 'useful.' You combine the little one knows with a little another one knows until you have a picture.
Why waterboard hundreds of times? Because that is the purpose of it. To zap every ounce of energy out of the enemy. When he is totally exhausted, physically and mentally, HE doesn't even know what he is telling or who he is telling it too. As his energy level falls to zero, so does his resistance. That, not pain and suffering, is the aim of waterboarding.

[427 S/O]

The Red Cross (on site) said Abu Zubaydah was water boarded 8-10 times, MSM spreading their usual twisted news.

[Excaliber]

Khalid Mohammed was the guy "memo's" say had water poured on him 183 times, sometimes reported as 183 water board sessions.

Report's for Abu Zubaydah vary significantly. Some say he was water boarded 83 times (not a typo), others that he broke in 35 seconds and was not water boarded. Red Cross has their own estimate.

The larger concern in my opinion is not how many times per detainee. The question is the legality of the formal guidelines that were used to accomplish it. Where those orders, if deemed illegal, originated. How wide spread was the use of "harsh interogation" tecniques.

The treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq was likely a direct result of the authorization by the USA to use "harsh techniques" across the board. Not just Cuba. Checks and balances against going to far in the use of the techniques was lost some where along the way. Who dropped the ball and why?

[Dan40]

Abu Ghraib was straight out and out prisoner abuse. No one was interrogating them. They were just mistreating them. It happens, we have bad people too. The soldiers involved WERE prosecuted. So its apples and oranges. Extracting information using waterboarding to SAVE AMERICAN LIVES is completely different from abuse for abuse sake.
Typical liberal misdirection.

Liberals hated Bush because he crushed the Constitution and spent like an idiot. Increasing the deficit 5 trillion in 8 years. But when king obama ignores the Constitution like it was a bothersome gnat and BLOWS over 4 trillion in 100 days, that's OK.

[427 S/O]

For the 3 or 4 here who are deeply worried about the health and well being of the known terrorist at Guantanamo Bay, I'm providing you with their email so you can send get well cards, love letters or what ever you think will make them feel better....


http://www.gtmo.net

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

For the 3 or 4 here who are deeply worried about the health and well being of the known terrorist at Guantanamo Bay, I'm providing you with their email so you can send get well cards, love letters or what ever you think will make them feel better....


http://www.gtmo.net

I'd suggest delivering them in person to the families of the known terrorist, most of us will chip in for a one-way ticket, no return ticket will be necessary - have a nice trip. If you end up losing your head over this good will trip - it's probably because we waterboarded family members, just damn.

[Jamo]

BTW...we have new software. Three of you are going to internet hell.

[cobra de capell]

......in a handbasket?

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

BTW...we have new software. Three of you are going to internet hell.

Really!?! Cool! Am I one of them? What if I'm an atheist and don't believe in Al Gore or hell?

[VRM]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

For the 3 or 4 here who are deeply worried about the health and well being of the known terrorist at Guantanamo Bay, I'm providing you with their email so you can send get well cards, love letters or what ever you think will make them feel better....


http://www.gtmo.net

I could really care less about terrorists. My concern is about following the laws, and not acting like some two-bit third world tin pot dictatorship.

[Excaliber]

Yup, that is an excellent point!

...apparently I miss spelled in a previous post, is it reich or right?

[Tatsushige]

You guys are saying it is OK for waterboarding to save Americans Lives.

Question : Another country does waterboarding on American Citizens to save the lives of their Citizens. Are you still going to say it is OK?


You have to think, Would you like the same things done to US citizens has the US does to citizens of other countries in time of war.





I think these IDOIT world leaders if they have problems with one another then they should meet in a gym somewhere and BEAT THE CRAP out of one another, instead of sending other people to DIE for their BS.

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by Tatsushige

You guys are saying it is OK for waterboarding to save Americans Lives.

Question : Another country does waterboarding on American Citizens to save the lives of their Citizens. Are you still going to say it is OK?


You have to think, Would you like the same things done to US citizens has the US does to citizens of other countries in time of war.

I think it would be a nice change...even though the Muslims,Vietnamese,Koreans,Japanese and Germans were pretty nice to us.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Tatsushige

You guys are saying it is OK for waterboarding to save Americans Lives.

Question : Another country does waterboarding on American Citizens to save the lives of their Citizens. Are you still going to say it is OK?

You have to think, Would you like the same things done to US citizens has the US does to citizens of other countries in time of war.

I think these IDOIT world leaders if they have problems with one another then they should meet in a gym somewhere and BEAT THE CRAP out of one another, instead of sending other people to DIE for their BS.

Welcome to the fray Tatsushige - Hajime mash te.

I think it is a bad idea for waterboarding to be American policy, and that I am pretty confident that more terrorists were created as a result of our torture policies.

It is also against the US Constitution for the President to decide what happens to prisoners. I don't have a problem with wars - I actually wish that we had made a better effort in Afghanistan against the Taliban and Al Quaida.

Steve

[Scott S]

77 posts and none of you got it right including my wife's relative from Japan konnichiha...Tatsushige

Torture is short term pain to gain an advantage over someone in your control.

The poll should have include one more question.

Are taxes torture?

Would you be water boarded or accept losing a fingernail or two so that you would never have to pay taxes again?

Think about it....

Scott S

[Tatsushige]

Thanks guys for the welcome. Nice to be here.

OK down to business.

Two wrongs do not make a right, just because someone does it to your citizens do you have to lower yourself down to their level and behave the same?


The West including the UK and my Home Country Australia all claim they are better than others and we BEHAVE civilized in time of war, yet we seem to support the same barbaric actions that terrorist and the likes support, and torture is barbaric. There has been cases were people have been tortured and died yet they have had nothing to do with terrorism, example of this was the taxi driver in Afghanistan that had his legs broken and was beat to death.

Afghan prisoners were 'tortured to death' by American guards

Shocking and detailed accounts have emerged of how two Afghan prisoners were tortured to death by American interrogators and prison guards at Bagram air base, outside Kabul.

Shocking and detailed accounts have emerged of how two Afghan prisoners were tortured to death by American interrogators and prison guards at Bagram air base, outside Kabul.

A 2,000-page report on an internal investigation by the US military leaked to The New York Times and published yesterday provides exhaustive detail on how the two were kept chained in excruciating positions and kicked to death.

READ STORY HERE

An autopsy found that Dilawar died of heart failure caused by "blunt force injuries to the lower extremities". The coroner, Lieutenant-Colonel Elizabeth Rouse, told a pre-trial hearing that his legs "had basically been pulpified ... I've seen similar injuries in an individual run over by a bus."

Now the US was complaining a few months back about Iran training assassinations squads to enter Iraq and cause trouble, but the USA was doing the same in Pakistan training assassination squads to enter Iran to cause trouble.

How can we in the WEST say you CANNOT do this and that, and then we do what we tell others they cannot do?

Two Wrong do not make a RIGHT, and we in the West are hated because we try to FORCE our beliefs, ideas and cultures on to others, and trust me I see it here in Japan, when you have Aussies, Brits and Yanks all say that they do not need to learn Japanese because English is the world’s language and the Japanese should learn English, they abuse Japanese that do not understand English and when they do this it make others like myself that live here look just as uneducated and ARROGRANT as the Tourists that are abusive toward the Japanese.

OH and the most spoken language in Mandarin Chinese, just in case you were wondering.

I support WAR on the GROUND of HUMANITARIAN REASONS eg, Sudan and Burma needs to be sorted out, also North Korea needs to have their doors kicked in. But Afghanistan was only invaded because they refused to hand over Osama, Iraq was invaded so Bush Jr could finish what daddy started. Both have made the WEST more hated around the globe.








PS Sorry for any spelling mistakes, been in Japan for 6 years and do not use English much now days!

[LoBelly]

Thomas Friedman had a column a couple of days back talking about how unsatisfactory is was that the crimes that were perpetrates will go unpunished. While I generally agree with this I also agree with his subsequent assessment of the nature of the enemy and how the episode has concluded (for the moment I expect).

- see link below

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/op...9friedman.html

While I was not a Bush supporter (and obviously that doesnt matter if I dont vote) I think that it is fair to say, based upon the revelations of those who were involved in or traced the evolution of the torture justifications, that Bush, and other senior official were mislead about the nature of the 'enhanced interrogation techniques' by the proponents of torture. In particular the poorly constructed and researched 'justifications'.

I also think that this the inevitable consequence of surrounding yourself with sycophantic ideologues and failing to have enough of an inquiring mind when presented with options that are contrary to 30 years worth of publicly available research and generally accepted truths (i.e. torture doesnt work).

It was well intentioned stupidity.

LoBelly