Should anybody be charged with a crime for torture?

[fsstnotch]

I did not read all of this thread.. mainly the first page and some of the 2nd but here is my take. Mind you, I served in teh military during this umm... war? Lived at Camp Bucca for a year which is one of the biggest prisons in Iraq... sorry.. the Government doesn't want them called prisons anymore because we don't take prisoners.. we take "detainees." So Detainment Facility!

Anyways, the question is should anyone be charged for torture? The answer.... unfortunately YES. Taking orders or not, every military member is given the same training. The training that says to do the right thing even if ordered to do else. Also unfortunate for these individuals is the Geneva Conventions Act of 1957 that says all prisoners will be treated fairly yadda yadda yadda.

Now if the question had read.. Do I think they should be punished? For the most part my answer would be no. Why? Imagine the message we would be sending to the world if we treated prisoners.. err.. detainees, sorry, like these criminals treat our PRISONERS. Cutting their heads off, etc. The difference here is that we are fighting CRIMINALS... not other countries who follow any sort of rules of war. And that is why I don't feel geneva conventions should apply so much here. To an extent, yes... but partly not.

That's my take. Like it or not! haha

[Tatsushige]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Maybe you need to crack open a few books (outside of Japan) to enlighten yourself.

Australian Born and raised to a British Father and Sicilian Mother, I was educated in the same western bulls**t you yanks are brainwashed with, the only difference is I have lived in over 8 countries around the world and have cracked open a lot of books and learnt that the Western History Crap we were taught is school IS bulls**t by the US, UK and Australian Government. You learn more when you can speak, read and write other languanges.

I only moved to Japan in 2003. I spent 2 years living in Taiwan in the early 1990’s, and if you care to learn Chinese and travel to Taiwan, you will read their history books that showed the Emperor of China asked Japan for help in the 1930's because the Communist were taking over China. Japan was helping the Emperor and the National Party to set up a Country with in China, but the Communists cried to the US and the US wanted to help but could not unless their declared war against Japan, which also leads to the US provoking Japan to war.

Most of the murders in China were carried out by the National Party that ended up fleeing to what is now known as TAIWAN. But at the end of WWII the US and China BLAMED Japan for most of the Murders in China, if you care to get an education you will read in both Taiwan History Books and Japanese History books that the Japanese only killed about 100,000 people the rest of the people killed were by both the National Party of China and the Communist Party of China. But Hey China will NOT tell the truth when they get $10Billion a year from Japan as compensation for WWII that the US forced on Japan when the US was occupying Japan.

Question to you, Why did the US military in the Korean War stand by and watch as the South Korean Government murdered over 100,000 of their own citizens. It has been in the news a lot of late with Photos of US military Personal standing by and taking photos of the South Korean Military murdering civvies and tossing the bodies in to mass graves.

Death squads and mass graves: the full horror of the Korean War, finally unearthed

Grave by mass grave, South Korea is unearthing the skeletons and buried truths of a cold-blooded slaughter from early in the Korean War, when this nation's US-backed regime killed untold thousands of leftists and hapless peasants in a summer of terror in 1950.

With US military officers sometimes present, and as North Korean invaders pushed down the peninsula, the southern army and police emptied South Korean prisons, lined up detainees and shot them in the head, dumping the bodies into hastily dug trenches. Others were thrown into abandoned mines or into the sea.

Women and children were among those killed, many of whom never faced charges or trial.

Blah Blah Blah

Through the postwar decades of South Korean right-wing dictatorships, victims' fearful families kept silent about that blood-soaked summer. American military reports of the South Korean slaughter were stamped "secret" and filed away in Washington. Communist accounts were dismissed as lies.

Only since the 1990s, and South Korea's democratization, has the truth begun to seep out.

In 2002, a typhoon uncovered one mass grave. Another was found by a television news team that broke into a sealed mine.

Further corroboration comes from a trickle of declassified U.S. military documents, including U.S. Army photographs of a mass killing outside this central South Korean city.

Now Kim's Truth and Reconciliation Commission has added government authority to the work of scattered researchers, family members and journalists trying to peel away the long-running cover-up.

The commissioners have the help of a handful of remorseful old men.

"Even now, I feel guilty that I pulled the trigger," said Lee Joon-young, 83, one of the executioners in a secluded valley near Daejeon in early July 1950.

The retired prison guard said he knew that many of those shot and buried en masse were ordinary convicts or illiterate peasants wrongly ensnared in roundups of supposed communist sympathizers. They didn't deserve to die, he said. They "knew nothing about communism."

The 17 investigators of the commission's subcommittee on "mass civilian sacrifice," led by Kim, have also been dealing with 215 cases in which the U.S. military is accused of the indiscriminate killing of South Korean civilians in 1950-51, usually in air attacks.

Blah Blah Blah

In 1953, after the war ended in stalemate, after the deaths of at least 2 million people, half or more of them civilians, a US Army war crimes report attributed all summary executions here in Daejeon to the "murderous barbarism" of North Koreans.

Such myths survived a half-century, in part because those who knew the truth were cowed into silence.

You can see (In Red Font) the US LIED about the MURDERS and BLAMED the NORTH KOREANS. So you are telling me I should believe the US about Japan and WWII.. yeah right, in ya dreams!

Not that I really give a rats a**e about the South Koreans, but let me Guess, if you are on the US side you can commit any crime against humanity that you like and get away with it, but if you are not on the US side then you will hear the BS from the US for the next 100 years.






My advice to you, obtain a passport and leave the security of the US, travel the world, crack open a few books outside of the US to EDUCATED yourself, but we both know that will NOT happen, as when you can only speak English, you cannot know the truth in other languages, so you are stuck believing the BS you are taught in English!

Another problem with westerns is that we have a CLOSED mind and REFUSE to accept other things and will ONLY believe what we have been taught from when we were children. When OTHERS try and tell us something that is NOT to our liking or beliefs we label then as crack pots or lefties or any number of other small minded labels.

[Jamo]

Tatsushige...you're actually promoting the arguement that Japan was trying to save China?

...and I s'pose Okinawa invited the Japanese to come in and set up shop as well?

Are you Turkish?

[Tatsushige]

Jamo .... and I s'pose Hawaiians invited the US to come in and set up shop as well?

Are you Jewish?


Any way go research the Last Emperor of China and you will see his brother Pujie, was married to Hiro Saga, a distant cousin to the Japanese Emperor Hirohito and they asked Japan for HELP against the Communist that were taking over China. NOW do not read english sites as a lot of it is BULL, go read Japanese or Taiwanese sites where the TRUTH is on what REALLY happened!

After WWII he was FORCE by the Chinese to go against the Japanese or be EXECUTED when he returned to Mainland China.

[Ron61]

Maybe you should remove this lne from your signature since you obviously don't live by it.

You only live once, so forgive and forget.


Ron

[Jamo]

No, not Jewish, but you obviously missed the point.

You know, I pride myself on being pretty damn open minded about historical accounts and have done a fair share of study in my lifetime. Seems to me that while you broadbrush Westerners about being closed minded, you seem to have built up quite a strict viewpoint on how you perceive things.

I've read numerous accounts of Chinese political situation in the early 20th Century and it is evident that the Japanese hardliner recreation of those events (what you seem to believe as the absolute truth) have been disregarded by historians from all over the world...and most certainly by the millions of folks who suffered under the brutal march to empire by the Japanese warlords. Obviously, this includes far more nationalities than the Chinese.

My point is that there is a slim minority of folks who belong to cultures who have committed attrocities in the past who seek to recreate history and deny historical events. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but please don't presume them to be welcome in the face of overwhelming factual data.

Me thinks your time in the spotlight on this subject has passed.

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Tatsushigi...you're most certainly providing an interesting perspective here.

Please be aware that you are being a bit, shall we say "aggressive" in your comments which border on being a rather unmitigated example of complete and utter valueless utterances.

Calm down a bit so you can stick around here for longer than knat fart.

Tatsushigi,
Are you by any chance related to VRM - Steve ?
Or maybe go to the same school ?

Just askin'.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Tatsushige

Australian Born and raised to a British Father and Sicilian Mother, I was educated in the same western bulls**t you yanks are brainwashed with, the only difference is I have lived in over 8 countries around the world and have cracked open a lot of books and learnt that the Western History Crap we were taught is school IS bulls**t by the US, UK and Australian Government. You learn more when you can speak, read and write other languanges.

I only moved to Japan in 2003. I spent 2 years living in Taiwan in the early 1990’s, and if you care to learn Chinese and travel to Taiwan, you will read their history books that showed the Emperor of China asked Japan for help in the 1930's because the Communist were taking over China. Japan was helping the Emperor and the National Party to set up a Country with in China, but the Communists cried to the US and the US wanted to help but could not unless their declared war against Japan, which also leads to the US provoking Japan to war.

Most of the murders in China were carried out by the National Party that ended up fleeing to what is now known as TAIWAN. But at the end of WWII the US and China BLAMED Japan for most of the Murders in China, if you care to get an education you will read in both Taiwan History Books and Japanese History books that the Japanese only killed about 100,000 people the rest of the people killed were by both the National Party of China and the Communist Party of China. But Hey China will NOT tell the truth when they get $10Billion a year from Japan as compensation for WWII that the US forced on Japan when the US was occupying Japan.

Question to you, Why did the US military in the Korean War stand by and watch as the South Korean Government murdered over 100,000 of their own citizens. It has been in the news a lot of late with Photos of US military Personal standing by and taking photos of the South Korean Military murdering civvies and tossing the bodies in to mass graves.



You can see (In Red Font) the US LIED about the MURDERS and BLAMED the NORTH KOREANS. So you are telling me I should believe the US about Japan and WWII.. yeah right, in ya dreams!

Not that I really give a rats a**e about the South Koreans, but let me Guess, if you are on the US side you can commit any crime against humanity that you like and get away with it, but if you are not on the US side then you will hear the BS from the US for the next 100 years.






My advice to you, obtain a passport and leave the security of the US, travel the world, crack open a few books outside of the US to EDUCATED yourself, but we both know that will NOT happen, as when you can only speak English, you cannot know the truth in other languages, so you are stuck believing the BS you are taught in English!

Another problem with westerns is that we have a CLOSED mind and REFUSE to accept other things and will ONLY believe what we have been taught from when we were children. When OTHERS try and tell us something that is NOT to our liking or beliefs we label then as crack pots or lefties or any number of other small minded labels.

Bozo,
I am about to renew my passport for the FIFTH time. I have 1.6 MILLION miles of air travel ALL over the world. Yes there are vastly different perspectives available as one travels. NOT more OR less accurate, just different. Many do not agree with the US. And the US does not agree with many. That is how it should be. WHICH is correct? NEITHER! Each has their points. There is no history book that is factual. All history is interpretation from the perspective of the historian. You are cutting and pasting from the 'net'. A fine source of information, but also the largest compilation of bullsh!t in the history of mankind. Rather than looking for sites to fit you foregone premise. Look at the overall site and find their agenda. Your memo site is a obvious "conspiracy in ALL things" site.

Meaning they have nothing of intelligence to contribute to anyone but the terminally paranoid like yourself.

[Jamo]

Keep it nice, Dan.

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Tatsushige

Operation Northwoods ...Need I say more

Tatsushige, you may want to make some purchases here.

Mike

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Jamo

...My point is that there is a slim minority of folks who belong to cultures who have committed attrocities in the past who seek to recreate history and deny historical events. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but please don't presume them to be welcome in the face of overwhelming factual data.

Me thinks your time in the spotlight on this subject has passed.

Well said. This would of course, include the Germans. To Tat: 60 years after both "empires" of slaughter met their demise, superiority again raises its ugly head in a new form. Elitism (you will find friends here). Both cultures (Japan and Germany) have caused more death and mayhem in this world than any US unilateral, military actions. Japan owes its existance and wealth status to the US. The US asks for nothing in return. No land. No booty. Nothing. Except that you behave like civilized human beings. Now, your line of thinking is taking it too far. You are not better than the rest of us. But you are a good friend. Please don't trampel all over that.

Mike

[VRM]

Tatsushigi,
I've been to Nanjiang and have seen the photos of Japanese soldiers doing some pretty horrible things. There were lots of American, Australian, Canadian, and British soldiers who had plenty to say about treatment as Japanese POWs.

Steve

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by VRM

Tatsushigi,
I've been to Nanjiang and have seen the photos of Japanese soldiers doing some pretty horrible things. There were lots of American, Australian, Canadian, and British soldiers who had plenty to say about treatment as Japanese POWs.

Steve

Yes, what Steve said.

Mike

[Dan40]

According to Tatsushigi, the US has conspired to start many many wars throughout history. How we started wars already in progress, I don't know. But we will address that at a later date.
For now, I ask why are wars started?

For money,
for power,
for territory.

Did we make money off WAR? Well we are broke, so we certainly didn't make enough. You'd think that in a couple hundred years of money making war starting, we'd have a few bucks left over.
So, not for money.

For power?
Of whom do we have power over? Europe? Nope! The mid East? Ha and Ha! The Far East? Not on your Nellie!
So, not for power.

For territory?
That's got to be it. Look at all the millions of square miles of territory we have gained. In Europe,,,,,,,,,,,Hmmm, nuttin in Europe. Africa then,,,,,,No not there. Mid or far east? No America there either. South America, named right, but no land deeds there. Canada? Too cold!
Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the US Virgins Islands. Thats IT!! AT last, We started a dozen wars so we could take over those islands. Damn, we're smart!

[Ron61]

Dan,

Don't forget what we got for the tons of money spend rebuilding Japan after the was. And what about the Japanese troops in Manchuria. I guess Russia started that war since they were afraid Japan was gong to attack them.

Ron

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by VRM

Tatsushigi,
I've been to Nanjiang and have seen the photos of Japanese soldiers doing some pretty horrible things. There were lots of American, Australian, Canadian, and British soldiers who had plenty to say about treatment as Japanese POWs.

Steve

I don't think he's perticularly interested in what people who were actually victoms of these acts have to say...

Obviously the vast majority are lying and only Japan's government is being honest.

My Father and two uncles were in the European theatre, three other uncles were in the Pacific. My uncle **** had three boats shot out from under him, still remember his story of approaching a burned out cruiser after the battle and finding gunners chained to the mounts.

Believe what you want, your wrong. A lot of good people, not just from the US, died to stop these horrific groups.

[Tatsushige]

Well believe in what you want, I will NOT change my mind!

[Jamo]

Then we will invade!

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Tatsushige

Well believe in what you want, I will NOT change my mind!

Which, is a prime attribute of an open minded person.

[RAZOR]

Tatsuey
You being such an peaceful,learned,traveler, really come off more as an aggressive, arrogant, elitist. Which begs the question are you sure your not French?

By the way tell your homeland good job with the Aboriginals. We knew better by the 1860's, you guys were still at it in the 1960's

That you think that the US is the moral equivalent to a terrorist, tells us more about you,then it does about the US