Obama Speaks, Pelosi Winces

[Excaliber]

The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care.

Joe Wilson lied. More troubling, he is STILL lieing! I move he should be censured and I think that will happen.

[bdeutsch]

I am simply not smart enough to make any meaningful contribution to the various views expressed in this discussion string.

Having said this, and parroting something I stated earlier, I believe every U.S. Citizen should enjoy some level of health coverage. How this is paid for however, is where I think the discussion becomes interesting.

In regards to the discussion surrounding whether coverage should include all U.S. residents versus U.S. Citizens, there is some precedent that the Federal government uses today that might answer this question.

I have a close friend who runs a county WIC (Woman, Infants & Children) program. WIC is a federally funded program, that is administered by your state and executed at a county level. Think of it as a kind of specialized food stamp program that is targeted at making sure that expecting low income moms, and their infants out to a designated age, have access to nutritious food. Multiple studies have shown that the cost of this program is more than offset by the health problems avoided by providing a proper diet to both mom and infant.

What does this have to do with the raging debate on who specifically will be covered by a new healthcare program? This is the bit that relates to precedent. Based on existing federal guidelines, no member of WIC can ask a partipant about their citizenship status; simply not allowed. I would submit, and again this is just my opinion, that this procedure might set a precedent for any evolving healthcare coverage program implemented by the federal government. I do not intend to suggest that this is either good/bad, just that, at least in this case, there is some reason to believe that as this story plays out and based on existing federal precedent, that both citizens and non-citizens could ultimately benefit from a revamp of the way healthcare is administered and executed in the U.S.

[Excaliber]

Separate programs.

The INTENT of the law has always been clear.

Federal law says that, with a few exceptions, a person must be a citizen to receive Medicaid benefits, for instance. That is consistent with the current Health bill. The problem for ANY of these varied Federal and State programs is enforcement. Which Obama is looking at very closely on a number of programs to achieve better administration and thus savings.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Whilst I might argue the point with others, I must defer to Badgers wisdom, if for no other reason than great respect (seriously).

Joe Wilson is an idiot, HE recognizes that. HE apologized, his PARTY forced him to. What he did was incredibly stupid and illustrates the only methodology the Republicans seem to understand. Negative foul mouthed in your face shout 'em down politics. In flames I tell you, in flames!

I thought you were going to stop arguing with Badger!? As you stated, he's a wise man.

You are becoming like Club Cobra's version of James Carville--tirelessly spewing liberal nonsense (instead of the Ragin Cajun, you're the Ragin Hawaiian).

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Which Obama is looking at very closely on a number of programs to achieve better administration and thus savings.

Yea Right

He can't find his own ass with both hands.

[Don]

" The INTENT remains clear and has always remained clear, no insurance coverage for illegals, that applies to EXISTING law as well. "

But in reality, sounds good but isn't it a mute point ? Anyone that goes to an Emergency Room will receive treatment, except for elective procedures, preventive flu shots etc . But when sick , such as getting the flu, , then the medical aid will be given, which is the high cost contributor.

These Emergency Room costs will continue ........, proving citizenship for care , not a reality. A national ID card ?

The President mention the " details " need to be worked out.

[Excaliber]

Stentor, I'll take YOU on, no problems there!

Again SEPARATE ISSUES! Emergency room care should be provided to anyone.

ARE they illegals receiving Medicaid? No doubt! WAS that the intention of the program? Certainly not. How could it happen then? People lie, take Joe Wilson for instance, and please, KEEP him.

Do you want to work on the "details" or just have an argument? Which one is most conducive to achieving the goal? Lets try this, "Don, YOU LIE".

[BeanCounter]

Ernie,

Seems Joe has now pulled in over $200,000 since it happened. Want to bet that he takes in double what the other boy does? Want to bet that he kicks his ass in the election?

[Excaliber]

Computerworks recently reported in another thread that $200K, achieved by Thursday afternoon, was for his OPPONENT. It is now swelled to $700K. Donations AGAINST Wilson are streaming in at a much faster rate.

The people have spoken on this issue.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by bomelia

Anybody BUT me notice how Pelosi almost exploded when a republican rebuked the illegal aliens comment? She looked once, then twice, then again! Then grabbed a piece of paper, did something with it and tossed it up on the rail in front of her with an AWFUL expression.

Maybe someone can youtube this.

In any event, I think someone is in deep dookie!

Mike

Back to the thread subject......(from the web)

Congress has its own fact-checker, the Congressional Research Service (CRS), which reports to Congress on the content of proposed legislation in much the same way as the Congressional Budget Office reports on the financial impact of (among other things) proposed legislation. The CRS is nonpartisan.

The CRS supports Wilson's charge of "liar."

On August 25, 2009, the CRS issued a report, titled "Treatment of Noncitizens in H.R. 3200", to all members of Congress. The report is only eleven pages long and is available at Treatment of Noncitizens in H.R. 3200.

According to the CRS (and with some minor exceptions), illegal aliens who are in the country for more than 182 days a year for three years in a row are required to have health insurance through a Health Insurance Exchange, which would include the Public Option insurance plan. From the report:


- "unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens (i.e., meet the substantial presence test [Scoutmaster note: essentially, are in the U.S. for 183 or more days out of the current and previous two years]), would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance" (page 2, paragraph 2);

- "H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the Exchange — whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present" (page 2, paragraph 3) [meaning, illegal aliens may purchase Public Option insurance - and are there any among us who believe that Public Option insurance will not be government subsidized?]

- "aliens who could be classified as resident aliens [Note: are in the country 183 or more days out of the current and previous two years] would be required under the bill to have health insurance" (page 2, paragraph 3)

- "all . . . unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial presence test [Note: the 183-day test] would be required to obtain health insurance" (page 7, paragraph 1);

- "it would appear that unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial presence test [Note: the 183-day test] would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance" (page 7, paragraph 1);

- "H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange [Note: the Exchange includes the Public Option]" (page 7, paragraph 2);

- "H.R. 3200 would only mandate that resident aliens [Note: a defined term that includes illegal aliens who are meet the 183-day test] would be required to have health insurance" (page 7, paragraph 2);

- "Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorized aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. ... [A]bsent of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure, that the [Health Choices] Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits" (page 8, paragraph 4; page 9, paragraph 1);

Based on changes made by the bill to the Medicaid and State Children's Health Insurance Program, "aliens who are otherwise eligible for Medicaid except for their immigration status (e.g., unauthorized aliens . . .) may receive 'medical assistance under Title XIX of the Social Security Act ... for care and emergency services that are necessary for the treatment of an emergency medical condition (as defined in Section 1903(v)(3) of such Act) of the alien involved and are not related to an organ transplant procedure' [Note: They're eligible for that emergency Medicaid care for five years]" (page 10, paragraph 2).

So . . . did Obama lie? He had access to this report for more than two weeks before he gave his speech. According to the analysis of H.R. 3200 by the body Congress trusts to analyze its legislation, illegal aliens are allowed to purchase Public Option insurance (shoot, they are REQUIRED to buy insurance if they've been in the country for 183 days or more each of the last three years. And the only bar to illegal aliens receiving credits to do so is IF the Health Choices Commissioner institutes guidelines to prevent them from doing so. According to the CRS, illegal aliens can receive emergency Medicaid for up to five years under H.R. 3200.

Did Obama lie? Well . . . his lips were moving.

[Excaliber]

Those same rules basically apply to Medicaid as well. There is a VAST difference between hammering out details of any bill, existing or future, and calling someone a liar.

Conclusion: Obama did not lie, Joe Wilson did!

This posting by CDC is a classic example of twisting the facts to LEAD one to wrongful conclusion. THAT is the essence of a lie!

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Badger

Joe Wilson spoke the truth....Badger

His exclamation made me think about how great it would be if we followed the British Parliment's protocols...have the President address the joint sessions once a month or so, and allow such challenges from the floor. If nothing else...entertaining.

[bomelia]

Hey Ernie, what it all comes down to is whether or not one believes the government ought to be in the business of supplying benefits (SS, Health Care, and so on).

I do not believe in this. Not one fiber of me agrees with it. It's income redistribution, pure and simple (Socialism). There will be nothing in this bill that I like. And like it or not, one of the HUGE reasons health care costs are out of sight (on this I agree with you) is that government meddling in the process has caused it. Look at our 2008 Federal budget: Mandatory spending: $1.788 trillion, Discretionary spending: $1.114 trillion. All Mandatory items must be paid before Discretionary items (like defense of our country). Mandatory now outstrips Discretionary. We are clearly on a trajectory where the ONLY function of government will be to redistribute wealth. Forget about defense (Constitutional), Infrastructure (Consititutional), and so on. We will be paying for programs that are not Constitutional only).

Yep, I really wish I could find the quote and quoter so I could say it right. But it goes something like "when the citizenary finally figures out how to vote itself a pay raise from the public treasury, the end of the democratic experiment is not far off". And that is what Americans now know best how to do. Whether you like it or not, you are advocating for something that will eventually bankrupt this country. It cannot be paid for. Look at the budgets, look at the debt, look at the interest on the debt and look at total reciepts. The money just is not there.

Btw, the quote in my signature was made by Cobra space Bill. Very telling, huh?

Mike

[Jamo]

Folks...let's get this sucker back to a mild roar and cool it with the personal comments.

Fact...for a variety of reasons (legal and operational) that you folks haven't even begun to discuss, the legislation will not prevent illegals from being treated, and it contains a loophole big enough for a coyote to drive a tractor trailer rig full of illegals through. Beyond that, there are provisions under the imm igration laws, some state laws and under general discrimination statutes that will prevent hospitals and other care providers from weeding out illegals from many non-elective services.

Obama did not tell the entire truth...Wilson's statement, albeit a bit inflammatory, was closer to the whole truth given Obama's statements.

My opinion...yes...based on dealing with immigration issues on a daily basis.

[computerworks]

How about a little afternoon do-over?

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Stentor

You are becoming like Club Cobra's version of James Carville--tirelessly spewing liberal nonsense (instead of the Ragin Cajun, you're the Ragin Hawaiian).

Not Ragin Hawaiian, Hawaiian Siren (its gotta ryhme)

Siren's of mythology would lure crews and their ships to dangerous shoals where the ships would wreck and be looted.

Kind of reminds me of liberal speak.

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by computerworks

How about a little afternoon do-over?

I'm thinkin a nooner is in order.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Stentor, I'll take YOU on, no problems there! ".

Ernie, you might want to start with a refresher on grammar and spelling before you try to engage in a logical debate.

I don't know if there are more errors in your grammar and spelling or your logic.

And for that matter, both Ernie and Cobra Bill have issues with their grammar and spelling (e.g., Jamo suspending Cobra Bill for his poor attempts at the English language). Is there any correlation here or is this part of the liberal disorder?

[Jamo]

Damn, I crack myself up sometimes.

[Excaliber]

We need to fix the "loop holes" that allow for illegals to obtain Medicaid as well.