Superformance Brakes (or not)

wanab5150 · #1 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008, 10:39 PM

I have a new Superformance 2008 version. This version has a new Wilwood caliper with an incorporated e-brake. The end of 2007 they also up-graded to a new rear caliper that is finned and looks like an old Chrysler caliper, but works well from what I heard. Mine looks just like the front unit, but Steve from R.E.D. in Reno (next to the dealer) says this is a single puck caliper and is brand new to the car.
From 70 to 0, the brakes fade and absolutely will not stop the car AT ALL if you get on them hard! Steve said he just tested another new car and found the same issue (NO FRICKEN BRAKES) He is looking into it. In the mean time, I cant drive it down the freeway!!!
ANY IDEAS ANYONE??? Tom

thudmaster · #2 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008, 11:46 PM

Call Lance Stander at 949-900-1951 and tell him your problem, If there is something in the wind I do not know about it and mine is four months old. Get this problem fixed before we all go to Sonoma..........

JCoop · #3 (**permalink**) 03-25-2008, 06:15 AM

I found that even with my older SPF, factory/stock pads just won't cut it for any kind of spirited driving; let alone track work. Dennis Olthoff set me up with better metallic/carbon pads that are a bit harsher on the discs but will stop the car. Also, for anything over a lap, you'd need to change the brake fluid to SRF or similar higher boiling point synthetic brake fluid, and of course, s/s braided lines. Your problem may be a combination of the above shortcomings. The 70-0 you speak about, was that after many runs or from cold?
Please keep us posted as this is bad news and I hope your issues get resolved.

wanab5150 · #4 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 09:52 PM

I may not have painted an accurate picture of the issue.....This is an issue of FAILURE TO STOP...PERIOD. If I bleed the fluid and added urine and removed the pads and replaced them with bricks the car might stop better. I'm retired law enforcement and have tested many cars after fatals or serious injury accidents. This car would fail. If I hit someone and the CHP tested this car, I would go straight to prison! Maybe a little dramatic, but they're really bad. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I called Lance today but he's out of the office. Also "Coop"...wana trade for the cooper S? and...the 70 to 0 is pulling out of the driveway cold!...LOL......tom

Got the Bug · #5 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 10:30 PM

It sounds like a design issue, especially since the symptoms were the same when Stephen tested another new car. It could also be a manufacturing issue that has impacted a specific run of cars. I'm sure Stephen/Superformance will figure it out.

JCoop · #6 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanab5150

I may not have painted an accurate picture of the issue.....This is an issue of FAILURE TO STOP...PERIOD. If I bleed the fluid and added urine and removed the pads and replaced them with bricks the car might stop better. I'm retired law enforcement and have tested many cars after fatals or serious injury accidents. This car would fail. If I hit someone and the CHP tested this car, I would go straight to prison! Maybe a little dramatic, but they're really bad. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I called Lance today but he's out of the office. Also "Coop"...wana trade for the cooper S? and...the 70 to 0 is pulling out of the driveway cold!...LOL......tom

Tom, that is really alarming. I agree it could be a manufacturing problem and if that, I'm disappointed with them for such poor quality control. Considering how these cars are driven they should at least have some sort of test for brakes before it leaves the factory. I'm sure their excuse is that it does not have a powerplant to drive the car when it leaves the factory; nonetheless, pretty bad PR, especially with a safety issue. The US distributor and reps in the US should react quicker than an "out-of-the-office" reply. I feel for you man, I admire how you're taking it calmly. I'd be livid. I have no sense of humor with this sort of thing.

Actually got an offer for the S the other day. Hard one to refuse...can't seem to let go, though

madmaxx · #7 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 07:07 AM

Is it a rear brake issue or front and rear. The front brakes due the majority of the work so if you have complete brake fade could it be a defective master cylinder. Keep us up to date!!! Have you tried calling other SPF dealerships to determine if they experience the same?

jperickson2001 · #8 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 08:16 PM

If they are supplying street/track brake pads it would have this effect. Very poor braking until the rotors get hot. Great braking for racing/autocrossing, but really scary on the street when cold or under nominal temperature. I use Hawk Street pad compound and they are fantastic. Expensive and worth it.-John

wanab5150 · #9 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 09:55 PM

I'm not familar with race pads. I did not try multiple stops becauce I was afraid they would fail completely. I'll find a safe place tomorrow and give it the torture test and get back with the results....I hope you're correct. It would make my day....tom

wanab5150 · #10 (**permalink**) 04-03-2008, 08:32 PM

Well, Stephen in Reno is working on it daily and the factory/Wilwood/and D.Olthoff are all involved and acknowledged the issue. Ive seen the e-mails. It's nice to see that they're hard at work seeking a remedy. I'm sure a cure will surface soon. Stephen has tried several rear calipers but to no avail. Also new pads have been tried. Part of the issue may be vacuum...the 427R Roush draws only 8# of vacuum. With most of what I read boosters require 15-22# to work correctly. I still think the master cyl. is part of the issue but they are working progressively and if that turns out to be an issue i'm sure they will take care of it. Thanks to Stephen in Reno....He's really busting his ass for us! tom

wanab5150 · #11 (**permalink**) 04-03-2008, 08:35 PM

I failed to mention in any of these posts that my car number is Superformance #2769

Bill Wells · #12 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 03:17 AM

A friend with a 427R was experiencing stalling at stops and poor braking/ stopping at slower speeds . Problem was attributed to low vacuum in his 427R . As I recall, his fix was a Vacuum Booster being added - no problems no more . Bill

bret a ewing · #13 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 04:13 AM

If you have 15" wheels there are limitations on the size calipers that can be used. If your design is similar to the CSX's, call Baer Brakes, they may be able to help.

john chesnut · #14 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 04:30 AM

The most common cause of for what you describe is improper master cylinder sizing. I don't know if this is your problem but I have seen it many times in other cars like ours. Ususally the builder uses too large of a bore.
Hope you get it sorted out. John

madmaxx · #15 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 06:34 AM

It would seam if the previous brake set-up was working say from car 2500? and before why would they change? and since they did, the problem would have to attributed to what they changed. If they changed the master cylinder and calibers then it could be either or both. I have a hard time digesting the 427r vacuum, their have been hundreds installed in spf's and now it is an issue?

I am curious if this is an isolated incident or has every car after chassis # experience a problem?

Rather simple system in terms modern car systems with traction control, anti-lock etc. There is a brake booster, master cylinder, lines, and calibers. Even if you had low vacuum the car will stop you will just have to push the barke pedal harder, if you push the pedal to the floor and the car is not stopping regardless of the brake pedal effort than it is not an engine vacuum issue.

wanab5150 · #16 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 06:43 PM

Well, as of today, the latest is that Dennis Olthoff racing has tried 4 different calipers and said the brakes work better with the Wilwood Dynalight (old setup)BUT also says that even those brakes dont work very good. He is still working on the issue with many others. I heard from Stephen in Reno that a remote vacuum reservoir has helped but is just a partial fix. Mad Maxx....... Olthoff said he has used hundreds of these motors without real issues with the old caliper set up. He did however state in his e-mail that a reservoir could help because of the low vacuum of the R motor vs the TW camed motor BUT it's not the fix..... He says calipers ARE the issue! tom

madmaxx · #17 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 06:39 AM

wanab5150
Thanks for the update, I also have a new spf in the works and first impression from assembler was "yes they work". Not yes, these are the best brakes I have ever used LOL! I am running the tw cammed motor though. It will be interesting to hear the path forward.

The Calipers I have dealt with apear to be fairly simple. We have a caliber with a bore, piston, hydraulic fluid. fluid presses on piston and piston pushes on pad, pad pushes on rotor. Did you notice any weepage around your calipers, as soon as hydraulic fluid is realeased all motive force is instantly lost, that is why when you pressure test vessels you always use liquid instead of air, liquid has no potential energy it is not compressible, if you tested with air which is compressible than bang? Is the brake hose fitting on the bottom as opposed to the top and air is getting trapped, during installation how were the calibers bled, on the car, hopefully they used a vacuum system? Are the calipers sticking, is there a rubber guide bushing which is swelling due to an incompatilble lubricant. The hardest brake problem I ever solved was an intermittent one, sometimes they worked great and sometimes they didn't. The problem was the flexible hose from the brake line to the caliber was defective and delaminated on the inside, sometimes the delamination would act like a flap when you applied the brakes and therefore no brake "pressure" would get to the caliber. It took many many f*()ing months to figure that one out!!!

I really do not see how this is a challenging problem and a little surprised . Or am I misinterpeting the problem, is the reality the spf brakes realative to dailey drivers are superior but SPF is having a problem competing with F1 cars brakes?

I suggest spf post all the calculations realative to fluid flow, displacement, pressure, brake bias etc so we can solve it.

Woodz428 · #18 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 07:56 AM

I suspect low engine vacuum to be the main culprit. Why would they be working on calipers when a change in master cylinder should provide a similar improvement as a remote vacuum reservoir? I do know that several people are running a remote resrvoir because of low vacuum in their engine choice.

jperickson2001 · #19 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 08:24 AM

Here is a link to Summit Racing's page on the electric brake boosters for engines with too little vacuum to operate a vacuum assisted brake booster. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...060&D=%2D57060
-John

Maurice Johnson · #20 (**permalink**) 04-05-2008, 09:28 AM

To me this subject of this discussion is incredible!!!!! I am presently in a state of flux, while I sort out my free time situation, over do I buy an SPF, or a Unique kit. A $70000 SPF SHOULD NOT come with brakes that do not work. What next?--no wheel bearings??? Or am I missing something in this discussion???