Superformance Brakes (or not)

wanab5150 · #1 (**permalink**) 03-24-2008, 11:39 PM

I have a new Superformance 2008 version. This version has a new Wilwood caliper with an incorporated e-brake. The end of 2007 they also up-graded to a new rear caliper that is finned and looks like an old Chrysler caliper, but works well from what I heard. Mine looks just like the front unit, but Steve from R.E.D. in Reno (next to the dealer) says this is a single puck caliper and is brand new to the car.
From 70 to 0, the brakes fade and absolutely will not stop the car AT ALL if you get on them hard! Steve said he just tested another new car and found the same issue (NO FRICKEN BRAKES) He is looking into it. In the mean time, I cant drive it down the freeway!!!
ANY IDEAS ANYONE??? Tom

thudmaster · #2 (**permalink**) 03-25-2008, 12:46 AM

Call Lance Stander at 949-900-1951 and tell him your problem, If there is something in the wind I do not know about it and mine is four months old. Get this problem fixed before we all go to Sonoma..........

JCoop · #3 (**permalink**) 03-25-2008, 07:15 AM

I found that even with my older SPF, factory/stock pads just won't cut it for any kind of spirited driving; let alone track work. Dennis Olthoff set me up with better metallic/carbon pads that are a bit harsher on the discs but will stop the car. Also, for anything over a lap, you'd need to change the brake fluid to SRF or similar higher boiling point synthetic brake fluid, and of course, s/s braided lines. Your problem may be a combination of the above shortcomings. The 70-0 you speak about, was that after many runs or from cold?
Please keep us posted as this is bad news and I hope your issues get resolved.

wanab5150 · #4 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 10:52 PM

I may not have painted an accurate picture of the issue.....This is an issue of FAILURE TO STOP...PERIOD. If I bleed the fluid and added urine and removed the pads and replaced them with bricks the car might stop better. I'm retired law enforcement and have tested many cars after fatals or serious injury accidents. This car would fail. If I hit someone and the CHP tested this car, I would go straight to prison! Maybe a little dramatic, but they're really bad. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I called Lance today but he's out of the office. Also "Coop"...wana trade for the cooper S? and...the 70 to 0 is pulling out of the driveway cold!...LOL......tom

JCoop · #5 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanab5150

I may not have painted an accurate picture of the issue.....This is an issue of FAILURE TO STOP...PERIOD. If I bleed the fluid and added urine and removed the pads and replaced them with bricks the car might stop better. I'm retired law enforcement and have tested many cars after fatals or serious injury accidents. This car would fail. If I hit someone and the CHP tested this car, I would go straight to prison! Maybe a little dramatic, but they're really bad. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I called Lance today but he's out of the office. Also "Coop"...wana trade for the cooper S? and...the 70 to 0 is pulling out of the driveway cold!...LOL......tom

Tom, that is really alarming. I agree it could be a manufacturing problem and if that, I'm disappointed with them for such poor quality control. Considering how these cars are driven they should at least have some sort of test for brakes before it leaves the factory. I'm sure their excuse is that it does not have a powerplant to drive the car when it leaves the factory; nonetheless, pretty bad PR, especially with a safety issue. The US distributor and reps in the US should react quicker than an "out-of-the-office" reply. I feel for you man, I admire how you're taking it calmly. I'd be livid. I have no sense of humor with this sort of thing.

Actually got an offer for the S the other day. Hard one to refuse...can't seem to let go, though

Got the Bug · #6 (**permalink**) 03-27-2008, 11:30 PM

It sounds like a design issue, especially since the symptoms were the same when Stephen tested another new car. It could also be a manufacturing issue that has impacted a specific run of cars. I'm sure Stephen/Superformance will figure it out.

madmaxx · #7 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 08:07 AM

Is it a rear brake issue or front and rear. The front brakes due the majority of the work so if you have complete brake fade could it be a defective master cylinder. Keep us up to date!!! Have you tried calling other SPF dealerships to determine if they experience the same?

jperickson2001 · #8 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 09:16 PM

If they are supplying street/track brake pads it would have this effect. Very poor braking until the rotors get hot. Great braking for racing/autocrossing, but really scary on the street when cold or under nominal temperature. I use Hawk Street pad compound and they are fantastic. Expensive and worth it.-John

wanab5150 · #9 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 10:55 PM

I'm not familar with race pads. I did not try multiple stops becauce I was afraid they would fail completely. I'll find a safe place tomorrow and give it the torture test and get back with the results....I hope you're correct. It would make my day....tom

wanab5150 · #10 (**permalink**) 04-03-2008, 09:32 PM

Well, Stephen in Reno is working on it daily and the factory/Wilwood/and D.Olthoff are all involved and acknowledged the issue. Ive seen the e-mails. It's nice to see that they're hard at work seeking a remedy. I'm sure a cure will surface soon. Stephen has tried several rear calipers but to no avail. Also new pads have been tried. Part of the issue may be vacuum...the 427R Roush draws only 8# of vacuum. With most of what I read boosters require 15-22# to work correctly. I still think the master cyl. is part of the issue but they are working progressively and if that turns out to be an issue i'm sure they will take care of it. Thanks to Stephen in Reno....He's really busting his ass for us! tom

wanab5150 · #11 (**permalink**) 04-03-2008, 09:35 PM

I failed to mention in any of these posts that my car number is Superformance #2769

Bill Wells · #12 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 04:17 AM

A friend with a 427R was experiencing stalling at stops and poor braking/ stopping at slower speeds . Problem was attributed to low vacuum in his 427R . As I recall, his fix was a Vacuum Booster being added - no problems no more . Bill

bret a ewing · #13 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 05:13 AM

If you have 15" wheels there are limitations on the size calipers that can be used. If your design is similar to the CSX's, call Baer Brakes, they may be able to help.

john chesnut · #14 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 05:30 AM

The most common cause of for what you describe is improper master cylinder sizing. I don't know if this is your problem but I have seen it many times in other cars like ours. Ususally the builder uses too large of a bore.
Hope you get it sorted out. John

madmaxx · #15 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:34 AM

It would seam if the previous brake set-up was working say from car 2500? and before why would they change? and since they did, the problem would have to attributed to what they changed. If they changed the master cylinder and calibers then it could be either or both. I have a hard time digesting the 427r vacuum, their have been hundreds installed in spf's and now it is an issue?

I am curious if this is an isolated incident or has every car after chassis # experience a problem?

Rather simple system in terms modern car systems with traction control, anti-lock etc. There is a brake booster, master cylinder, lines, and calibers. Even if you had low vacuum the car will stop you will just have to push the barke pedal harder, if you push the pedal to the floor and the car is not stopping regardless of the brake pedal effort than it is not an engine vacuum issue.

FWB · #16 (**permalink**) 04-18-2008, 08:30 AM

8 inches of vacuum will not run a power booster... i installed a vacuum pump
but be careful most of the pumps out there are junk. i installed this swiss
job, it really works well maintains 18 inches of vacuum and can be run without
a vacuum canister. heres a link. ( i bought the horizontal)

www.metricmind.com/pump.htm

FWB · #17 (**permalink**) 04-24-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FWB

8 inches of vacuum will not run a power booster... i installed a vacuum pump
but be careful most of the pumps out there are junk. i installed this swiss
job, it really works well maintains 18 inches of vacuum and can be run without
a vacuum canister. heres a link. ( i bought the horizontal)

www.metricmind.com/pump.htm

again,,,,i have wilwood brakes. i have 8 inches of vacuum i did not stop without
a vacuum pump. installing one that is belt driven is a pain inthe ass if you already have your engine compartment completed. the metric mind pump is designed for an electric car that produces no vacuum. this pump will provide
the complete vacuum requirements for a power booster. you will hit your face
on the steering wheel with the braking power you will have. just connect it to the booster and connect it to the power and the braking problem is solved. there is nothing wrong with your rear brakes.

Fred

jhwalker · #18 (**permalink**) 04-24-2008, 04:13 PM

Tom
I posted a note for car #2794 earlier, this post is from my own experience.
I have gone back and reread the entire thread.
My car is an older SPF #2117, but it also has a Roush 427R.

The first time that I tried to brake with the clutch in and low rpm I discovered that the engine did not make sufficient vacuum at low rpm for the brakes to be effective. It scared the poop out of me. It was the same issue that you described earlier regarding the 8" of vacuum.

The next day I took it to my installer and ask them to install a "vacuum assuring device". It was cheaper than changing the engine, plus I like the 427R, and I like the low rpm lumpy sound.

I'm no mechanic, but I know the vacuum pump runs when I turn on the car power and creates vacuum until some specified level is reached, and maintains that vacuum level.

I have never had a problem since I added the vacuum pump or cannister (or whatever it is called). I just spent two days at a track day at Willow Springs and killed a set of tires. I know my brakes are different, but what we have in common is the same is the 427R that makes no vacuum at low rpm.

Since most of the people whom I know who have a Roush 427R have addressed the low RPM lack of vacuum in some way or another, I have suggested to SPF that the dealers remind all buyers that if the engine installed does not make vacuum, NO vacuum-assisted brakes will work.

Keep us posted on how things work out.
JamesW

Tommy T · #19 (**permalink**) 06-02-2008, 04:33 PM

I've got an old (124) SPF. OK brakes with the original 351 crate. Repowered with a K Craft sb 427 and had NO braking to speak of while stuck in heavy traffic without REALLY standing on the pedal, in spite of a vacuum reservoir. Fine on the track though, ended up putting in a vacuum pump for use on the street, but not necessary when carring some RPM.

wanab5150 · #20 (**permalink**) 04-04-2008, 07:43 PM

Well, as of today, the latest is that Dennis Olthoff racing has tried 4 different calipers and said the brakes work better with the Wilwood Dynalight (old setup)BUT also says that even those brakes dont work very good. He is still working on the issue with many others. I heard from Stephen in Reno that a remote vacuum reservoir has helped but is just a partial fix. Mad Maxx....... Olthoff said he has used hundreds of these motors without real issues with the old caliper set up. He did however state in his e-mail that a reservoir could help because of the low vacuum of the R motor vs the TW camed motor BUT it's not the fix..... He says calipers ARE the issue! tom