Superformance Exhaust

[RedBarchetta]

Can someone tell me if the Roush/AFR exhaust ports exit the head at a different height/measurement than, say, an Edelbrock Victor Jr. head? If the bolting points are identical, then it's possible to leverage the design. But knowing that the exhaust ports for each head are considerably different, not sure if non Roush/AFR headed engine owners need apply?

-Dean

[Jim Vander Wal]

Roush/AFR 205 & 225 exhaust ports are vertically centered. The ports on the 205s are 1 3/8"sq, 225's are 1 1/2" sq both with radiused corners.

I believe that Vic Jr's are vertically centered too but the ports are more rectangular. I have a set available and can check if no one else knows.

Jim

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by Jim Vander Wal

Roush/AFR 205 & 225 exhaust ports are vertically centered. The ports on the 205s are 1 3/8"sq, 225's are 1 1/2" sq both with radiused corners.

I believe that Vic Jr's are vertically centered too but the ports are more rectangular. I have a set available and can check if no one else knows.

Jim

Jim, I recall an older article in Second Strike that showed that the header bolt orientation on the Victor Jr's was actually either slightly lower or higher than the AFRs. In other words, the header would bolt up a 1/4" (or more?) up or down from one head vs. the other. This is what I'm trying to verify, as that would mess up alignment and force the use of a shim (at the collector flange) to angle the down pipes properly. An angled shim = another gasket = another opportunity for leaks.

-Dean

[wanab5150]

Can someone give me instructions how to post photos here? thanks

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

Can someone give me instructions how to post photos here? thanks

Tom,

Before you can upload any images to CC, they need to be re-sized to a smaller format (i.e. 640 x 480).

Here's a thread regarding re-sizing images.

Tips on Picture Uploads and Image Sizes

This Microsoft program can be downloaded and provides a quick and simple way to create a copy of your original image that can be uploaded to CC. Adobe and other image programs will do the same thing, but the MS program is easy to use and becomes a choice when you right click an image in your "my pictures folder."

http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...ertoySetup.exe

To upload an image to your CC Gallery:

- Click on the "Gallery" tab (one of the choices on the top tool bar)
- Click on the "My Photos" tab
- Click on the "Upload Photos" tab on the right
- Fill out any info regarding your photo (not required)
- Click on "Select Files for Upload"
- Find the image file (that you re-sized) on your computer
- Upload the image

- Click on the "Go Advanced" tab before you create or modify your post.
- Click on the "insert image" tab on the right
- Choose the image from your gallery (it will insert the file url in your post)
- Post the thread / click on the thumbnail to enlarge the image

Here's an example.

[poisonsnake]

contact Ron Roberts @Firefly Performance.com Absolutely rocking systems and a wealth of knowledge. Integrity too!

[wanab5150]

I've seen his pipes and they are beautiful, but you can get Stainless pipes for Factory 5 for $1400 delivered. A friend of mine has them. They are tig welded and polished. Perfect! The builder only makes them for factory 5. Too Bad.

Stainless 3 inch mufflers and pipes ARE Stainless 3 inch mufflers and pipes! The cost of 304 stainless is not $1500 more for materials, and tig welding is no more expensive on stainless than steel. This is obvious by the fact that Firefly Jet coated are only $100 less than Stainless.

The chambered exhaust, fab work, and Jet coat is $1300 out the door from Steve at Full Throttle in Reno. Fireflys are $2900 delivered in Stainless and $2800 for jet coat. Paying more than twice the price for Fireflys ($1700 more for the same 3 inch set-up) is a high price to pay for his integrity!

[madmaxx]

The builder for the factory five needs to make them for spf. I imagine it would only require a new jig. The amount of material and labor would be about the same. I was happily pay $1400 for stainless steel sidepipes for my spf but $2900 it out in left field.

Originally Posted by wanab5150

I've seen his pipes and they are beautiful, but you can get Stainless pipes for Factory 5 for $1400 delivered. A friend of mine has them. They are tig welded and polished. Perfect! The builder only makes them for factory 5. Too Bad.

Stainless 3 inch mufflers and pipes ARE Stainless 3 inch mufflers and pipes! The cost of 304 stainless is not $1500 more for materials, and tig welding is no more expensive on stainless than steel. This is obvious by the fact that Firefly Jet coated are only $100 less than Stainless.

The chambered exhaust, fab work, and Jet coat is $1100 out the door from Steve at Full Throttle in Reno. Fireflys are $2900 delivered in Stainless and $2800 for jet coat. Paying more than twice the price for Fireflys ($1700 more for the same 3 inch set-up) is a high price to pay for his integrity!

[tmareina]

When I had my engine rebuilt by FE Specialties in Sacramento, Tom changed the core muffler...from 2.5 to over 3" ...mine was loud and had good performance before but you could drop a baseball in the new pipe and it is a little louder...for a 428 with 614hp. Call him...he can give you some figures.

Tom

[wanab5150]

Update Saturday...

I went up to Reno and fitted the pipes to the car and tacked everything in place. My stock turnouts actually pointed up slightly rather than being 90 degrees to the ground. I turned the new turnouts down just slightly....I mean just a touch, but not enough to ever be considered leaf blowers. I've seen some that are almost 45 degrees and they make a friggin mess especially with any dirt around.

I've done exhausts for Harley's and noted the sharpness of the exhaust note decreased more than you would think when you turn them down just a degree or two. It kind of takes the bite out of them. They will still be louder, but it does help.

I fired it up and "what a difference". It doesn't sound like an air compressor anymore. Such a "deep throat" sound.....I meant to say "Deep and Throaty"? I didn't get to drive it because it had to be removed and Tig welded, and will be sent off to Fresno for Jet Coating. I will have them on the car Aug 6th. and be back with a sound and performance update. It will be a seat-of-the-pants performance update because I'm not so inclined to spend an extra $500 for a couple of "before and after" dyno pulls. My performance rating will be listed as .....Pretty Good..... Wow, what a difference..... or, Holy Sh#@! I'm hoping for Holy Sh#@!

[Bxx1]

Congrats on the exhaust... can't wait to hear it!

[wanab5150]

Remember Ron....Your car will have to start first to here them if you put them on YOUR car.

[Bxx1]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

Remember Ron....Your car will have to start first to here them if you put them on YOUR car.

Well, if I can just crank the darn thing over I would like to 'hear' your car. AND since I put in new spark plugs last nite I have at least A 50% chance!

[jhv48]

We're waiting here!

If it works, I will want a set too. If the cost isn't prohibitive!

As an aside, why can't we use the Finishline or FFR sidepipes and bolt them up to the header pipes of the SPF. Won't they bolt right up?

[wanab5150]

I changed the plugs this morning and ran it about 50 miles, mostly at 3000 RPM cruising. I jumped on it in 3rd, 4th, and 5th and it ran great. No issues at all. It has perfect throttle response with no bogs, hick ups, stutters.....nothing. I drove west toward Sacramento to maintain seal level as much as possible. The temp was 80 degrees.
I drove home and checked the plugs, and they looked like they have never been run. I wasn't expecting brown or even a medium tan, but I mean clean! There weren’t any signs of lean either. They were clean to the point it scared me. Fifty miles isn’t much, but I expected some coloring.

I called Holly and discussed the 770 Street Avenger which is the carb I have. They said that no re-jetting would be required as Holly's are flow tested and a pipe change would make no difference. The more you put your boot into it the more air enters and takes the metered fuel with it....regardless of RPM or exhaust.

Well, jetting Harley’s and race bikes always required going up a few jets, but it also entailed changing either the air cleaner or air box. In this case only the pipe diameter was changed. Since I was not reassured by Holly’s response (too simple) I called Roush and told them my tale. John, the tech guy, said that the Holly 770 CFM was a really good match for the 427R and they switched to that carb and dropped the 750CFM a while back. He said they test a variety of Holly’s and this one was the best all around carb for torque and HP. I asked him what a good replacement would be if I wanted one and the phone went silent for a few uncomfortable seconds, and then he said “I would keep the 770”! OK, I said. It was clear that I Sh%* in his Cheerios at that point.

I stumbled into my exhaust story before he hung up on me, and asked about the jetting issue. John said the same as the Holly guy. He said these Roush engines are set up with a straight header when their dyno’ed and are sold to thousands of customers with a variety of systems, and the exhaust size has no bearing on the jetting unless you change to an odd-ball carb , manifold , or head. They said it was set up for that motor and if it’s been running good for the last 6000 miles, it should remain in the correct jet range.

Now that I have listened to two complete professionals in their field, and been told to leave it the hell alone, it was time to completely disregard what they said and venture into uncharted territory. I pulled the 70 primary jets and replaced them with 71’s and changed the secondaries from 73’s to 74’s…….what’s the worst thing that could happen.
I took the car out and ran it through the gears like this morning. Performance was not much different except for a slight surge when I hammered the throttle through 3rd gear and 4th gear. It didn’t do that earlier with the stock jets. There was also a touch of a stumble at 2500RPM hammering the throttle, also NOT THERE EARLIER! It was 90 degrees at that time but I can’t believe 10 deg. would make a difference…….But!

I should mention that the car is downright scary in 3rd. and 4th. Red line is there instantly. 1st and 2nd are out of control anyway as they were before. But after it straightens out it hits hard. I can’t say that I gained a hundred HP, but it is substantially faster through the gears. It seems that up to 3000RPM is the same (no loss at all) but above 3000RPM it’s nuts. I’ve run it up to 120 before and I would say it does feel 15-20% quicker. That’s the only way I can describe it. I did this for the exhaust sound in the beginning so I’m completely satisfied. The HP gain is a side benefit, and I need a hundred HP like I need an extra ass! But, I’ll take it.

I changed back to the stock jetting this evening and will test tomorrow when the sun is high and the CHP are having coffee! I think I’m done. Tom

[jhv48]

Anybody have a phone number for Full Throttle in Reno?

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by jhv48

Anybody have a phone number for Full Throttle in Reno?

Here you go. Stephen Bramlitt is the owner.

http://fullthrottlereno.com/

[jhv48]

Thanks. Will check it out soon.

[wanab5150]

I got the carb back together with the jets it came with. Just for kix, I looked up the carb on the Holly site, and the Holly index calls for 72 Primary’s and 75 secondary’s. I have 70 Primary’s and 73 secondary’s……. Sh#@, here we go again.

I did not relate the jet info to Holly yesterday because I just didn’t think of it. I tried to call them today but no response after holding for 28 minutes. I’ll try again tomorrow.
It’s possible, Roush jets the carbs before adding them to the engine and have worked out this alternate jetting spec beforehand. If so, the guy I pissed off at Roush did not mention it and I would have thought he would have since my questions revolved around jetting.

I’ll run it this way (#70/#73) for the weekend and see how it goes. I think I’ll put a couple of hundred miles on it then check the plugs again. If it seizes up or burns a hole in a piston I will have a clear cut answer to my question….”Is it too lean?” Tom

IF ANYONE HAS A COMMENT OR SUGGESTION I'M OPEN TO IT!

[wanab5150]

I ran my sled up and down Highway 80 this afternoon in 95 degree weather. I cannot distinguish any difference between the #70 and #73 Roush jetting and the #71/ #74 jetting I tried yesterday. I’m thinking the very, very, slight surge I described might have just been the crappy pavement on 80. Bumping along on 17 inch donuts combined with the aerodynamics of a brick at speed with even a slight breeze could produce the feeling of a light surge. So, I’ll chalk it up to that that theory.

For now I’ll drive it this way for a couple of hundred miles and report back. I think I’m very close if not right on. Tom

CONTINUE IF YOU ARE NOT BORED.

I drove to Smeding Engines in Rancho Cordova and talked to Unki Kim, manager and assistant engine Guru. Still searching for the universal knowledge of carburetors and jetting, I ended up getting the full tour of the shop including the dyno room, build room, and storage area where six engines sat ready for shipping. I was there for about an hour and was treated like a diplomat. For what reason, I don’t know. Was he just a nice guy? Was he was bored? Does he just love his work? ……I think it was the latter. Well, very nice guy too!

Unki pulled three different carb brands from the back room and described the differences in each, eventually stating my Holly 770 should still be jetted correctly and if it runs flawless and doesn’t overheat then he would not recommend changing to any of the cool iron sitting on the counter. Now I have a trifecta of answers from Roush, Holly, and now Smeding stating the jetting should not have changed with the addition of larger exhausts.

The three trick carbs he showed me were a Holly 4500 series 750cfm HP, the second was a Speed Demon 750cfm and the third was a Quick Fuel Technologies 750cfm double Pumper with red anodized metering blocks and base plate all made out of some special high grade “un-obtanium”. All 3 of the carbs sell for about $500 to $600.

The Quick Fuel carb looked like “MAN JEWELRY”, and I wanted one. If I could just get him to say it produced more HP than my 770 it was a done deal. He wouldn’t! I tried the direct approach….”Could I get another 10 HP out of it?” “Possibly, but maybe not, he said “. My Visa card was burning a hole in my hand. Christ, what do I have to say to get him to take my money?

Unki said if my Holly 770 was working correctly with no issues it may not be worth the money or set up time to switch. The performance difference would probably be negligible and at $500 for MABEY five HP it just wasn’t worth it. He said come back and see him if I had an issue with my Holly and he would help me out. But, from what I was describing, my Holly was set up better than most.

The myth of any major HP gains were also dispelled when we discussed the Holly’s (and others) air horns where the choke butterfly’s are located. I’ve heard rumors these deflect air as it enters the carb throat and because the Demons and 4500 HP Holly’s have a smooth bore entry with no air horn or other obstruction, more Horse power will be on tap. Unki said if you don’t run an air cleaner you may gain a few if any, because the air cleaner already re-directs the air downward in most cases and therefore changes the airflow before it even enters the carb. If no air cleaner is used or a velocity stack is used instead, then maybe it would matter, but not enough to be concerned about.

Most of the high performance /race carbs allow for easy air bleed adjustments and changes where street carbs usually have fixed air bleeds. There are also usually less vacuum ports and lack of the choke horn I discussed above. Generally, Unki said, it’s adjustability that differentiates between high performance carbs and street performance carbs. At wide open throttle, a 750cfm hole is a 750cfm hole! What matters is the fuel /air ratio, which is the jetting.

I asked about going to an 870cfm or maybe a 1000 cfm carb as I have read some Cobra guys are running them, and swearing by them. He said in a drag race scenario the Roush 427 could handle the carb but on the street you’re going to lose all the “drivability” and furthermore all the torque will drop as a result of the huge intake. He said you have to choose WHAT KIND of power you want as opposed to how much power you want. If I wanted 600 HP and 400 lbs of torque go with the 1000cfm and live with the crappy street manners. If I stay with the Holly 770 I might have ONLY the 550 HP but I gain the torque back and the good manners for the street. ….It seems the carb Rouse put on the motor is a good choice!

I was impressed with Unki’s knowledge and the shop itself. The Smeding engines are remarkably similar to Roush engines in Cubic inches and off the shelf parts. As strange as it may seem, the Roush 427R engines are made from Dart Sportsman blocks, “H” beam rods, 10 to 10.5 compression ratios, AFR 205 heads, 1.6 Rollers, Edelbrock, and Holly carbs. Roush parts? Smeding uses mostly the same components with their own cam spec, Quick Fuel or your choice of carbs, and choice of ignitions. The biggest differences are price …..Roush $15,995 (mine) and Smeding $9,995. The Smeding engine posts 560HP and 560TQ. It’s no surprise that their 427 is called a “Smeding 427 Cobra”.

I am happy as a pig in Sh@! with my Roush, but I think I may be swayed if I decide to build another sled. For $6000 I think I could find an engraver to scratch “Roush” onto the look alike valve covers.
Smeding is in Rancho Cordova, Ca. 1(916)638-0899