Toploader shift rods

[rsk289]

I've now fitted Nick's excellent correct trans mount bracket, for the T'bird rubber block. As was the case with the Mustang-style mount, the rear shift rod and lever foul the chassis crossmember by getting on for 1". So I can make up a plate to raise the tailshaft by this amount - but, has anyone tried shortening the shifter lever that the rod is connected to? Obviously shortening it will mean it doesn't move the rod quite as far as before, but would this be an issue? I'd prefer to retain the correct driveline angles, but if shortening the lever means it won't go into gear then the answer's obvious.
Just wondered if anyone has experience of trying this!
Roger

[mickmate]

Shortening the lever will push it further in to gear but make it a little harder to do so.

[DanEC]

Is just one shifter rod hitting the crossmemeber - or all three of them?

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Is just one shifter rod hitting the crossmemeber - or all three of them?

The lowest by a long way is the Reverse shift rod, which tips down at quite an angle over the crossmember. This is the one that calls for any spacer to be 1" thick - the 3/4 rod may foul the xmember but by much less and would work with a thinner trans mount spacer. Can't really tell unless I remove the reverse rod and retry.
The 1/2 rod is completely clear.
Maybe experiment by redrilling the reverse lever plate, repositioning the reverse rod, and seeing if it still works...
It's a Tiger toploader, btw

[FatBoy]

Roger,

If you drilled and tapped a new hole for the top bolt in the shifter mounting plate, would that allow you to rotate the shifter enough to clear the cross-member? It would bring the handle back slightly, but that may or may not be a problem.

Paul

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by FatBoy

Roger,

If you drilled and tapped a new hole for the top bolt in the shifter mounting plate, would that allow you to rotate the shifter enough to clear the cross-member? It would bring the handle back slightly, but that may or may not be a problem.

Paul

Wouldn't do it, Paul - firstly that would alter all the required shifter rod lengths, and it would need to move a very long way.
Best options are
1 spacer under trans mount
2 shorten the vertical lever working the reverse rod
3 relieve x-member and weld in fillet, easily reversible if I ever win the lottery and find a decent T10
Every Kirkham with a toploader will have the same issue, presuming the crossmember is in the same place.* So the spacer option clearly works, it'd just be neater to avoid it if poss, and better for the driveline angles. I'm aiming for 3-4 deg but have yet to measure the diff flange angle.

*and assuming it has a Tiger toploader - this is the price you pay for getting the shift lever in the correct place!

[LMH]

Nice job!
Larry

[DanEC]

I agree - nice job. Looks like that reverse lever is no shorter than the 3/4 lever so I wouldn't think the effort would be any higher than the forward gears. I have a Hurst unit in my car and I'm not familiar with Ford shifter mechanisms - how does that work with the slotted rods?

[rsk289]

Thanks guys - the effort's actually slightly easier as the rods and levers are now working at 90°, which is more efficient.
The rods don't slide - the slot is simply for adjustment, there's a nut on the back of the pivot which you can't see which holds it tight in the slot. I was careful to weld with the adjustment in the centre of the slot just in case.
There's a small hole at the top of the levers, just under the shifter pivot, visible in the first two pics. This goes right through everything - put a 3/16" drill bit right through all the arms, set the side levers in neutral, tighten the slot nuts just mentioned and the shifter mechanism is adjusted correctly.
These things are so simple, it's unbelievable!

[LightNFast]

Congrats on your modification.

I believe the only difference between the Tiger and Galaxie is the tail housing length. You can see from the photo the original T10 configuration has the 3-4 lever just above the frame member - The Toploader should be nearly identical.

It sure sounds like the drivetrain isn't sitting correctly in the chassis.

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by LightNFast

Congrats on your modification.

I believe the only difference between the Tiger and Galaxie is the tail housing length. You can see from the photo the original T10 configuration has the 3-4 lever just above the frame member - The Toploader should be nearly identical.

It sure sounds like the drivetrain isn't sitting correctly in the chassis.

I had an idea that the side rod arrangement on the T10 is different from the toploader. Are they the same?
Certainly at present the tail of the toploader is sitting quite low with ref to the diff flange. I haven't got a motor on the front of it so can't tell until that's in.
The top of the 'chocolate block' rubber mount is roughly level with the top of the crossmember. As far as I can see that is correct, unless someone can tell me I've got it wrong. I may need some spacing anyway to help with driveline angles, but I think the T10/toploader difference is in the side rod arrangement.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by rsk289

The rods don't slide - the slot is simply for adjustment, there's a nut on the back of the pivot which you can't see which holds it tight in the slot.

Thanks - the washer and cotter pin threw me, looked like a free, sliding connection. I was thinking - how does that work? Learned something about Ford shifters today.

[strictlypersonl]

While the lines of the transmission and differential should be close to parallel, they shouldn't be in line. The latter configuration keeps the needle bearings from properly rotating in their cups and will result premature Brinell failure.

[rsk289]

OK - now the engine is in, and I have checked the angles. The toploader clearly sits a little differently in the frame than the T10 would have. If I have no engine mount packing but pack the trans mount with a 1/2" spacer, this will give engine/trans tilted down at 1.5°, propshaft at 4°, and differential flange (fixed position) at 3°. I'm happy with this given the constraints of the system. The surgery I performed on the t/l rods means I have good clearance at the crossmember and don't have to notch the aluminium floor.

[MAStuart]

RSK289 I have a few comments and questions. Some of your answers might help others, myself. and you.

1 Engine and trans angle should equal pinion angle. The angle should be going the same direction (they should be parallel to one another). That would you have to do to get the angles the same. Raise the trans more or lower it?

2 Did they ever put Top loaders in leaf spring cars from the factory?

3 If they did install some top loader trans from the factory what shifter tower and what linkage did they use. (What model car was it taken from?)

4 I think you said that when the Tbird rubber was installed it was about level with the top of the frame rail. This means the rubber mount is about 1 inch thick and the plate that it wraps around is about 1 inch down from the top of the frame rail. Is this correct?


Mark

[MAStuart]

RSK289 is any chance that you could post some pictures of your trans mount and cross member and also your engine mount ( the brackets that are welded to your frame that the rubber mounts bolt to.)

The reason I am asking is because I am scratch building a Daytona coupe. The coupe the engine was lowered 1 inch so my engine mount brackets should look shorter than yours. I think the plans that I am using has some problems. I think my engine mount brackets are right but my trans mount bracket is in the roadster position and not lowered as would be required to get the engine and trans to the right angle. IF this is correct I will have to dent the cross member at the transmission for clearance of the shift linkage and the big angled support fin on the bottom of a t10 trans. If I raise the engine at the front mounts 1 inch my drive line angle is correct and the linkage will clear the trans cross tube.

Mark

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

RSK289 I have a few comments and questions. Some of your answers might help others, myself. and you.

1 Engine and trans angle should equal pinion angle. The angle should be going the same direction (they should be parallel to one another). That would you have to do to get the angles the same. Raise the trans more or lower it?

2 Did they ever put Top loaders in leaf spring cars from the factory?

3 If they did install some top loader trans from the factory what shifter tower and what linkage did they use. (What model car was it taken from?)

4 I think you said that when the Tbird rubber was installed it was about level with the top of the frame rail. This means the rubber mount is about 1 inch thick and the plate that it wraps around is about 1 inch down from the top of the frame rail. Is this correct?


Mark

Hi Mark -

From the research I've done over the past few years, I think parallel is an ideal situation - and give or take 1.5° should be OK in an IRS car with a fixed diff position. My previous build, a Hawk 289, had around 2° difference (pinion 4°, crankshaft 2°) and suffered no ill effects. To get true parallel, I would need to drop the crank line down further which is not practical.
Toploaders were never (to my knowledge) installed by the factory. I think all 289s used the T10. This answers your third point too.
Regards to the T'bird mount - yes, it is all as you describe.
Other, more knowledgeable members of the forum than I have confirmed that in MkII cars (and possibly later) the engine/trans were level, with the propshaft inclined downwards at 3° to the diff. It seems even AC struggled to get it right.

[Rick Parker]

Next Time:

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Next Time:

Yes, that would be great - but how much??

Interesting to note the shift rods are in a completely different configuration, clearing the crossmember easily.

[LMH]

Mark, are using plans from Cal Cobra's for your coupe?
Larry