Flip Top Wheelbase?

[Jac Mac]

Question?
Was the chassis of the Flip Top car lengthened by 3" in a similar manner to the coupe that had the same motor fitted, to give it a longer wheelbase. Photos of the engine compartment of both cars would tend to suggest this is the case given the apparent distance from water pump to front spring, but I would like to be certain. Thanks in advance.

[LMH]

I think it had the standard 289 chassis, just modified for the big block. I think the wheelbase was still 90" but I don't know that for sure.
Not much help am I!
Larry

[Jac Mac]

That may well be the case, it is just that as this car was built after the coupes that I find it hard to believe that having discovered the extra chassis stiffness added by the coupe superstructure that this knowledge along with the extra chassis length used on that Daytona for the 390 would not have been utilised in the Flip Top also, especially with the people involved. Ken Miles had already driven the first 427 roadster ( on wire wheels ) while doing testing on Coupe #1 and was from his comments well aware of the need for some work in the handling dept. Remember these were leaf spring cars, the Ford Computer had not been asked for an opinion yet! While Bill Eaton was responsible for the Daytona chassis stretch, the Flip Top could well have been done during one lunch hour while no one was looking-- at least thats what I would have done---, No politics or bureaucracy to contend with that way & I think that stuff happened quite often back then

[Hank F]

I`m suprised that more of the members cannot chime in on your question Jack. To me the Flip is the one I would like most to own.
Hank

[Jac Mac]

You can be sure Hank that if I go & build it with a 90" wheelbase, the first day out in public there will be half a dozen "Cobra'' experts standing at the ready with Tape Measures in hand to tell me its supposed to be 93" or 95"

In the books 'The Cobra Story & Shelbys Wildlife' there is a pic taken in the 'New' Venice W/Shop. In the foreground is the Flip Top car sans bodywork, immediately above is the first 427 ( & only?) Comp car #98, & then an early GT40.
Interesting to note that The FT ran # 98 @ Nassau also.

Pic is not clear enough for me to decide whether there is any extra tubing etc, but central rear fuel filler is visible.

Would be good if it is longer as I could transpose all the suspension data I have from the TVR ( 95" wb & similar track dimensions ) into the build then & car would be real good straight out of the box.

[tinmansunbeam]

The flip-top car is also to me the top of the line cobra anybody could want to own

reasons
1 lighter then 427 cobras
2 390 alum cammer ( supposedly cast in aluminum in an 427 mold then sleeved down to 390)
3 faster then the 427
4 sick access to the engine and gas tank
5 mean looks and a wicked hood to "let the air out"
6 4 2bb Webber carburetors
7 thinner gage body to lighten the load

only down side is the older cross leaf spring suspension
but who cares sports cars arnt meant to be comfortable there
meant to go point a to point b fast with marginal creature comforts

Leather seats would help, I think it had leather seats not sure though.

info is really hard to come buy on the car other then the basics
wonder what the hp was, the octane level used was, and what sort of compression ratio was used.

Ive seen only one pic of the engine in
Cobra: The Shelby American Original Archives 1962-1965 By David Friedman
and thats on page 134

to see the page go to
http://books.google.com/books?id=JR3...5las#PPA134,M1
on the next two pages 135 and 136 we see more views of the car..... I like the front view a lot, real real cool....


On a side note I was comparing these photos to the flip-tops 3 Ferrari nose holes/vent and the car in these photos did not have them also i know at one point the car was damaged were the holes added after or before?

any help here?

[Rick Parker]

It is not a Cammer. Just an 'ol FE.

[tinmansunbeam]

ur sure Ive herd differently i thought it was a reg 390 but in alum then herd it was more experiential then that
i herd it was a cammer on the forms i have the post saved somewhere ill find it...

on the above link i like the King Cobra on pg 131 nice shot
if it wernt for the fact that the 390 looked so much more
agressive ied take the King Cobra

[tinmansunbeam]

heres several posts all in one group sorry i didnt include the org poster i didnt copy that
each separated by a -----

----
The alum 390 was in Shelby's shop by June of '64, which I'm quite sure was before any of the 427 iron sideoiler blocks were cast, so the iron 427 sideoiler was really more of a copy or evolution of the alum 390 than the alum 390 a copy of the sideoiler 427. The alum 390 block was made off modified 1964 427 centeroiler tooling, evident, along with some other tell tale attributes of the '64 427, as the Ford engineers didn't even bother removing the C4XX part number from the patterns and just added the SK number in a different spot (the first iron 427 sideoiler had a C5 part number).

I heard the sideoiler upgrade to the FE was developed as part of the SOHC program (the SOHC design effort did overlap the alum 390). Regardless of which project it was part of, the Ford engineers obviously thought incorporating this new sideoiler concept into the alum 390 would be a good opportunity to put the idea into action. As a result, the alum 390 was the first sideoiler FE.

----

On the alum 390, there were only 2 made according to Pete Brock, the technician at Ford who assembled them, and from a couple other sources, so trying to use the argument of whether it's the same block out of that car is a moot point (the other one was supposedly blown up).

----

The only other car that ran the alum 390 was 3002 (actually delivered with it)

-----

Ford made at least 2 possibly a few more.
The reason for them in the first place was when Miles stuffed the Iron block Iron head motor into the 289 #2196 and stuffed it into a tree.

Miles said he needed light weight to make the leaf spring car turn so Shel asked Ford for aluminum. Since the sideoiler was just the new latest and greatest, they cast aluminum and sleeved it. Hence 390 size which had lots of RPO items on the shelf.

2196 got one of the alloy motors with the 58 webers and 3002 got the single 4 version.
I am aware of the original flip top motor being alive and well after its failure and repair to a non thrust side. Sadly it's not in the flip top which sports a new Shelby Aluminum Block.

-----

The 3002 motor is presumed long gone.

-----

any other info out there? also it said in the book 58mm webbers

what 58mm webbers is he talking about...

Weber 58mm twin-choke horizontal carburetors ~1961 car

Weber 58 DCO/A3 twin-choke sidedraft carburetors ~1954 car

found about those two in those yeared cars
are there other 58mm webbers?

[Jac Mac]

The Alloy 390 FE pushrod with 58mm IDA type webers ( They are not the same dimensionally as 48mmIDA's) was originally fitted to the Daytona Coupe in Italy that had a 3" longer wheelbase. As this car was never raced in this form and the opportunity to use it passed by, the motor was removed, chassis restored to 90" and refitted with 289, Alloy 390/weber was returned to US & fitted to the Flip Top for Nassau.

[tinmansunbeam]

is there any info as to performance hp or torque for the engine

On a side note I was comparing these photos in the book to other ones of the flip-tops 3 Ferrari nose holes/vent and the car in these photos did not have them also i know at one point the car was damaged were the holes added after or before?

the car in the photos has the daytona vent on the front instead of the 3 separate vents

how many different fronts did this car have?

[Tom Kirkham]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

Question?
Was the chassis of the Flip Top car lengthened by 3" in a similar manner to the coupe that had the same motor fitted, to give it a longer wheelbase.

The Daytona coupes had a 90 inch wheelbase. The 427 Super Coupe did not run until much later. The original design of the 427 cars had a lengthend chassis, but AC Cars had already bought the main rail tubes cut to length so they were stuck with a 90 inch wheelbase.

Where did you find the reference to 3 inches?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Tom Kirkham

The Daytona coupes had a 90 inch wheelbase. The 427 Super Coupe did not run until much later. The original design of the 427 cars had a lengthend chassis, but AC Cars had already bought the main rail tubes cut to length so they were stuck with a 90 inch wheelbase.

Where did you find the reference to 3 inches?

The 427 Super Coupe was never completed by Shelby American. I think it was finished by an enthusiast sometime in the 1980's.

The coupe that was lengthened was one of the original 6 daytonas. It was supposed to be a surprise for LeMans. There were apparently several different wooden mock up engines sent to the mechanics, because it was not certain which would be used in the end. I think that the 427 sohc was even considered. But one of the other 5 coupes was damaged in a transporter accident, and the lengthened coupe was then put back to original configuration. My memory may be fuzzy, but I'm sure I read it at some point. Probably in either the Shoen or Brock book.

I have never heard anything about lengthening of the chassis for the flip top.

The 3 holes in the nose were in the original configuration of the car as the first car to get a big block motor. The car was banged up after it's race in that configuration. Since it was banged up, it was a good candidate to convert it to the flip top (why rip the body off of a perfectly good car, when you can rip a damaged body of a banged up car).

Thomas, don't you think you the best way to show off that new billet chassis would be with a flip top body? Hint, hint, hint.

[Excaliber]

I have seen and have somewhere in my archive of photo's a picture of the original 390 alloy engine. It actually has an X on the valve cover, a typical FE valve cover by the way, certainly not a cammer cover.

The original alloy 390 was offered to the owner of the flip top, at an extreme dollar amount. The offer was turned down.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by tinmansunbeam

...

I heard the sideoiler upgrade to the FE was developed as part of the SOHC program (the SOHC design effort did overlap the alum 390). Regardless of which project it was part of, the Ford engineers obviously thought incorporating this new sideoiler concept into the alum 390 would be a good opportunity to put the idea into action. As a result, the alum 390 was the first sideoiler FE.

...

I would not interpret that to mean that the aluminum 390 was a sohc motor.

The heads on the sohc motor are much bigger than the heads I've seen on the pictures of the aluminum 390.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I have seen and have somewhere in my archive of photo's a picture of the original 390 alloy engine. It actually has an X on the valve cover, a typical FE valve cover by the way, certainly not a cammer cover.

I have on good authority about the original engine in CSX2196:

"...although this engine is called a "390", it was in reality a fully cross-bolted, side oiler 427 casting (probably the first) made in aluminum, that had the displacement reduced simply due to the insertion of steel sleeves."

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by Tom Kirkham

The Daytona coupes had a 90 inch wheelbase. The 427 Super Coupe did not run until much later. The original design of the 427 cars had a lengthend chassis, but AC Cars had already bought the main rail tubes cut to length so they were stuck with a 90 inch wheelbase.

Where did you find the reference to 3 inches?

Tom, In the Daytona Cobra Coupes book, Page 190. Bill Eaton was the guy who was told to add 3" to the chassis & fabricate engine mounts to suit both the Alloy 390& SOHC Cammer. This as all done in the USA before the chassis were shipped to Italy for bodywork.

Tinmansunbeam- The car with three vent holes in the front was not the Flip Top, take a close look,it has a conventional hood as per ordinary Cobra. Flip Top did not have that!! I think this was the Sebring 'Teddy Treebagger', first 427 leaf spring car. However the Flip Top did go thru several different vent experiments during its development, look at the two seperate radiator exits of car when first tested versus single louvered panel & opening of car at Nassau.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

Tom, In the Daytona Cobra Coupes book, Page 190. The car with three vent holes in the front was not the Flip Top, take a close look,it has a conventional hood as per ordinary Cobra. Flip Top did not have that!! I think this was the Sebring 'Teddy Treebagger', first 427 leaf spring car.

I believe the thought that there was more than one 427 leaf spring proto has been disproved.

The Sebring car with the 3 cooling holes was the chassis that was converted into the fliptop bodied car.

[lamaluv]

Although I didn't measure, the flip top seemed to have the same wheel base as Rich's draggon snake that was parked next to it.



Dick

[Jac Mac]

From that photo that would appear to be the case, but if computerworks is correct in stating that the Sebring 'iron 427' chassis & that of the Flip Top are one & the same then the 'original' Flip Top chassis was longer---- CS's Racing Cobra by Freidman & Christy, page's 158 thru 175, and on page 163--- A Cobra chassis was stripped of body, lengthened,tweaked here and there,equipped with mounts to take the 427 engine-----------

The 58mm Webers were leftovers from the 255ci Indy Project.