CA: New criminal cases filed

[Jamo]

That's it.

If you don't live in California...get off this phuking thread now. No if, ands or butts.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Whoa now! Much of this thread deals with CA's requirement for emisions testing, as well as CA not recognizing titled cars from 49 other states. I think this should not exclude others with something to say regarding these issues.

[Jamo]

You don't vote in California.

If someone is moving to California in the near future and has a question about what the law is here, fine. Otherwise, comments from third world states (the other 49) are irrelevant. Tired of the pissing matches and incorrect statements (not directed to you, BTW).

I realize you may not agree with it, but end of discussion...so that this thread in this particular reference forum can actually be beneficial to those that live here or will be using its laws in the near future.

[Jamo]

Now...one more time for everyone else: This is the Registration Forum. It was created by Brent as a reference source for folks seeking information. It is not a debating forum.

[Jamo]

Excellent direct question, and a helpful direct answer...that's what the Registration Forum is for.

Thank you both.

[Chaplin]

Morgester-
Alas! You have gotten to the issue which I have been bringing up over the last few year(s?). That is the rub, as they say.

I have my own thoughts on what the correct answer is, but I'm sure you already know what they are so I won't bore you (again) with them.

Good on you for sticking around and checking it out.

[vanoochka]

A couple of months agao, I purchased an out-of-state Superformance Cobra titled as "1965", and registered it in California before I had found this site and before I knew of the SB100 situation.

My car actually has two different VIN's: the original one that came with the car (riveted to a cross member) and the one that the other state attached to it, right next to the original.

When I went to DMV to register the car, there was some confusion as to which VIN should be used. Finally, a DMV supervisor came out, looked at the VIN plates and made the decision to use the VIN assigned by the other state (not the original) for California registration/title purposes. He said the rule was to accept the VIN attached by the other state.

I don't know if this situation relates in any way to California DMV giving "full faith and credit" to the model year noted on the title issued by the other state or not, but thought I would post it for comment.

In any event, I don't plan on being the test case for this, and so will take Mr. Morgester's advice and be on line on January 2nd (sigh).

[Morgester]

I am curious, did DMV keep the year for emission testing (were you smog exempt)?

[Morgester]

Let me share with you why I am interested.

1. Why is there a problem?

This of course relates to using out-of-state title services to register what should be a special constructed vehicle (SPCN) as a specific model year vehicle. Based upon my interviews with car owners most of these custom-car owners were under the impression that out-of-state titles are "the way it's done" in California. (See http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2004/.../article_281652 ) This mindset was not helped by the lack of published guidelines showing what the process was for dealing with the emission issues for a SPCN.

2. AB 619

To deal with the estimated 70,000 vehicles that have fraudulent registration and to recover an estimated $230,000,000 in loss tax revenue there is proposed amnesty legislation to allow the correction of registration information, to bring these cars back into compliance with emission requirements, and to recover lost fees, taxes and penalties.

At the time amnesty was proposed we were informed by BAR that emission tests for SPCN's were either based upon the year of the engine or upon a SB 100 exception (500 per year). Although we knew that not all fraudulently registered SPCN could meet these requirements, we felt that the standards were reasonable enough that we would get the majority of these vehicles to self correct.

3. New BAR rules

We received further clarification on California emission standards as it relates to SPCN that do not have a SB100 exemption. BAR's will be shortly begin to comply to with existing law which requires SPCN to meet the emission requirements of the year that they are first registered in. If you do not have a SB100 exemption and your vehicle is first registered in 2007, you will be required to meet 2007 emission standards.

BAR's previous policy of testing to the year the engine replicates was at odds with Vehicle Code § 4750.1 (effective Jan. 1, 2003). This section states in part:

"the vehicle shall be assigned the same model-year as the calendar year in which the application is submitted, for purposes of determining emissions control equipment and inspection requirements for the vehicle."

With reference to those vehicles that were passed by BAR under the old standard, it appears that BAR will "grandfather" those vehicles in. So the standard that you had to pass to get your vehicle registered will continue to apply to that vehicle.

BAR will begin to implement that standards outlined in Vehicle Code § 4750.1 once DMV begins assigning a "model-year" to SPCN. DMV is aware of this requirement.

The net effect is that SPCN registrations will be limited to 500 vehicles per year (hot rods / kit cars). I do not anticipate any SPCN vehicles meeting 2007 or latter emission requirements.

4. Impact of new BAR rules

BAR reports having tested over 400 SPCN SB 100 exempt vehicles in the last year. They also tested over 300 SPCN that were outside of the SB100 program. On our end we are still seeing the fraudulent registration of vehicle via false title documents, as well as the "legal" registration of SPCN using valid out-of-state title. I would estimate that these account for at least 200 vehicles per year. Total SPCN currently introduced into California per year would be around 1,000. This number will increase.

With the new 500 limit we anticipate a number of registration schemes to be used to allow these vehicles to be driven in California.

5. A legal registration scheme - foreign certificates of title

Presently there are a lot of "ifs" in this response. Both BAR and DMV will have the final word on how this will be interpreted.

Numerous states have replica registration laws that allow SPCN to be titled per the year the body replicates. A 2007 SPCN Cobra kit car would be titled as a 1965 Ford. These states place mileage restriction or other emission restriction on the vehicle.

Assuming a California resident legally registers their SPCN in one of these states, they would be granted a title document describing their vehicle as a 1965 Ford. Vehicle Code § 4304 requires DMV to grant "full faith and credit to the currently valid certificate of title describing the vehicle." Thus it would appear that DMV is required to register this vehicle as a 1965 Ford.

The next question is what impact, if any, does this have on SPCN emission requirements? One view point is that since Vehicle Code § 4750.1 requires that emission testing be done by a "model year" that DMV assigns, and in that DMV is required to accept the vehicle as a 1965, that emission standards will be set at 1965.

Regardless of ones stance on emission requirements for SPCN vehicles, Vehicle Code § 4305 raises some very unique and interesting problems by its possible unintended consequences.

6. Dealing with this mess.

Currently AB 619 has been placed on suspense in light of the new BAR rules. Amnesty will not be an effective tool if there is no perception that the owner may legally drive the vehicle.

Vehicle Code § 4304 creates a potential legal loop hole that will allow SPCN to be brought into California outside State emission requirements. Based upon registration issues currently present in the RV industry, I anticipate registration services to provide vehicle delivery and appropriate title documents in SPCN friendly states. These documents would then allow the vehicle to be registered in California outside of existing emission requirements. I would also anticipate that the industry that currently supports SPCN construction to relocate to these states.

To encourage self correction and to maintain current California emission requirements, SPCN emission standards, including SB100 exemptions should be re-examined. Any proposed changed to SPCN emission testing must be tied to closing the Vehicle Code § 4304 title loophole.

Which leads me to my question, what is DMV doing with out-of-state SPCN emissions? All of this has been in play, it is just figuring out what is happening at ground level that is challenging.

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by Morgester

Which leads me to my question, what is DMV doing with out-of-state SPCN emissions? All of this has been in play, it is just figuring out what is happening at ground level that is challenging.

Mr. Morgester, thank you again for your contributions to our forum.

To answer your question, it is clear to me that the CA DMV is taking legal out-of-state "1965 Ford" titles, verifying the VIN, and issuing legal "1965 Ford" CA titles, and using "1965" as the model year for emission requirements (ie: 1965 = smog exempt).

Originally Posted by vanoochka

They didn't require a smog test, and my California registration and title note that it is a 1965 model year....

[vanoochka]

They didn't require a smog test, and my California registration and title note that it is a 1965 model year.

Is that what you are asking?

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by vanoochka

They didn't require a smog test, and my California registration and title note that it is a 1965 model year.

Is that what you are asking?

From my observations, this is very typical of the DMV. In this case, CA issued a CA Title & Registration for Van's 1965 Ford as a "1965 Ford", since Van's provided the DMV with 1) Current out-of-state title/registration and 2) Bill of Sale. With those two docs, the CA DMV issued him title/registration.

Interesting that the DMV had to do a little work on the VIN, but other than that, what the DMV did is as expected - they didn't question the model year or make. And based upon the model year (1965), it is smog exempt.

Again, the DMV has done this before with out-of-state purchases, and I'm sure they will continue to do so. And Van didn't know any different, until he began posting on this site a few weeks ago. I can't image how many other replicas (Cobra or otherwise) have model years from out-of-state like Van's (or from an out-of-state title service), where the owner has no clue. In fact, I can only imagine that the owners believe that their replica is smog exempt, and actually see the pre-1974 model year as an "added value".

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by vanoochka

They didn't require a smog test, and my California registration and title note that it is a 1965 model year.

Is that what you are asking?

If the car was legally titled in another state as a 1965, then, according to CA's own statute as quoted by the good Morgester, then that should be the right answer, regardless of whether the CA DMV got there accidentally! Whether it remains to be the case, only time will tell.

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by Chaplin

If the car was legally titled in another state as a 1965, then, according to CA's own statute as quoted by the good Morgester, then that should be the right answer, regardless of whether the CA DMV got there accidentally! Whether it remains to be the case, only time will tell.

This is one facet, and maybe someday the DMV will "get back to" Morgester on this.

The twist is that if I build a Cobra in CA, then CA will want me to title it as SPCN and get an SB100 Sequence number, 'cause my motor is not 2007 smog compliant. So, why should I not have my cousin in Kansas or Ill or AZ title it for me in their state as a "1965 Cobra/Ford/Superformance/whatever", then sell me my car back, so I can title in CA as a "1965 Cobra/Ford/Superformance/whatever"? This way, I don't have to worry about getting one of 500 Sequence Numbers, and I'll be smog exempt forever. Sure I will have to pay taxes at the DMV - I'm not trying to avoid my tax responsibility.

Some might call this "title washing", but the paper trail is the same, as if I bought an out-of-state car...right?

How about if I just set up a small INC or LLC in Nevada or buy a vacation home, title my Cobra there as an 1965 Cobra, then transfer the title to my home on CA???

By accepting the "1965" title from another state, it opens a large number of legal ways to get around the SPNC/SB100 circus, and this is probably why the DMV has not "gotten back" to Morgester on this.

In a nutshell, this is exactly the service the TU was providing, which is why it was not uncommon to use an out-of-state titling service to acquire a "smog exempt" 1965 title for a Cobra replica.

[Excaliber]

Hawaii issue's their own STATE Vin, as I understand Arizona does also. In my case, Hawaii, they used the manufacturers assigned vin number, "ERA154". NOTE: The car formerly had a CALIF. vin all ready assigned as well! 6 characters are far short of the expected 17 character number/letter combo normally used. No smog laws in Hawaii.

[Jamo]

Vanoochka....interesting, to say the least. Probably not a bad idea to grab some coffee and donuts and get up early on January 2 like you're planning.

Slick...thanks. Please remember to post that on the Hawaii Registration Thread.

[Excaliber]

Jamo, I think the key here is the car formerly had a Calif vin, changed by Hawaii. While I don't live in Calif, it's a huge market should I decide to sell or even move. It's important to understand how Calif/out of state titles/vins work in that regard for many of us out of state.

[Jamo]

OK...you're right given that you're selling it and nobody in Tahiti is biting.

Just trying to keep it on track.

[RodKnock]

Randy, you see this quite often on the local Craiglist, where the seller advertises their Cobra as smog exempt because it has a 1965 model year on the registration. You give them a call and ask them about whether the car has gone through the SPCNS process and received an SB100 #. Of course, the claimed ignorance, so I would roll my eyes and move on thinking of the work needed to register the car, uh, which I'm now starting on my own car.

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Randy, you see this quite often on the local Craiglist, where the seller advertises their Cobra as smog exempt because it has a 1965 model year on the registration. You give them a call and ask them about whether the car has gone through the SPCNS process and received an SB100 #. Of course, the claimed ignorance, so I would roll my eyes and move on thinking of the work needed to register the car, uh, which I'm now starting on my own car.

Agreed, however many of these sellers are truly unaware of how CA wants these car titled, so they view a 1965 model year as a value-add, being smog exempt. I sure many have no clue about SPCN and SB100. I was clueless many years ago, too! (Heck, some say I'm still clueless , but that's another matter).