Performance Coatings 4 internal engine parts ?

[FUNFER2]

I would like to ask engine owners that have used the Performance Coatings for internal engine parts, if you know,..... that they've helped with performance and mostly,....anti-ware protection ?

Is their proof information available from non-biased,... testing company's ?

What company's are considered the best ?

How much did it cost to coat the rotating assembly, bearings, heads, valvetrain ect...?

Was the cost worth it ?

[Ralphy]

I second this question, and how about thermal coating pistons and heads?

Ceramic Coated Intake ?

[Ralphy]

Found some reading.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ech/index.html

Wow, app. 8 or 9 ponies for $900.00. With a risk of detonation.

"Coated, it made 559 hp and 547.6 lb-ft compared with 550.9 hp and 541.6 lb-ft uncoated. That's about a 1.1 percent gain in torque and a 1.5 percent power gain. Overall average output was up as well."

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e..._shedders.html

[FUNFER2]

Thanks for the links.

As far as ceramic coating goes. I like it on the outside of my intake manifold but, I'll never have on the side pipes again. It dulled pretty fast, so I made stainless pipes.

I don't think coating every part inside is s good idea, as you need heat in a motor. I would like the pistons, valves (at least the tops), springs, and the combustion chambers coated with the other products they recommend. But is it worth $500-$1,000 ?

[Bobcat]

Look HM Elliott & Co`s site . Most of the NASCAR teams in Mooresville , NC use his coatings on all their engine bearings , valve springs , ring gears , oil shedding coatings on the inside of the pumpkins etc . John Force is also a customer . I`ve known Harold for years and used his coatings for years . BTW , he used to build engines for Junior Johnson and later , the Penske teams . I believe at one time he was NASCAR engine builder of the year . I used his coatings on all my bearings when I was racing and they looked brand new after as many as 15 races with oil temps in the 230 degree range .
The crank counterweights can be coated with an oil shedding coating .... saves hp when you don`t have to sling around all that oil . The bearing coatings can save an engine if the oil film breaks down .
Harold told me that the rear end coatings were worth about 15 hp and cooler temps . I had ERA ship him my gears before they assembled the rear end . They also coat the yoke splines ( mine also ) ... no hp gain , just peace of mind on a highly stressed part .
I can`t quote tests etc . , but they must work otherwise the teams wouldn`t use them .
On my 427 Galaxie , I had him coat the ring gear and pinion , piston skirts , all bearings , valve springs etc . Again , I didn`t run any tests , but I now have right at 10 years on that engine .

[Ralphy]

Bobcat in the second article. They ran a motor with just dry lubricants. The dyno showed less power then a untreated motor. ?????????? Also they do no investigating as far as adding longevity to engine parts.

Funfer2, ceramic coating the top outside of your intake is completely wrong as far as performance goes. The ceramic would hold in the heat, the ceramic would need to be added to the bottom side. They have a black coating that draws the heat out.

I'm also curious why someone would get detonation? Maybe the .004 to .005 thickness added to the piston and head added a little to much compression for the fuel someone used? Maybe they are getting pre-ignition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4glXa88WF_Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6acQulIj4E

[Z-linkCobra]

Unless you really need the extra H.P. why spend the money. If you just want to spend money then spend it on something that at least can be seen. Buy a better intake, a better carb, a better distributor. If the right parts are used you will gain more H.P. from that than you will thermal coating.

You probably make more H.P. than you can hook up now...I know mine will when its done..but it sure will look pretty.

Just my thoughts.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Ralphy

I'm also curious why someone would get detonation? Maybe the .004 to .005 thickness added to the piston and head added a little to much compression for the fuel someone used? Maybe they are getting pre-ignition.

Because the coating prevents the piston from absorbing the heat from the combustion chamber.


.

[Bobcat]

Ralphy ... possibly because they didn`t run the coatings/engine in . When Harold does them , it`s a 4 step process from degreasing/metal prep to preheat to application to curing in the ovens . When the engine is run for the first time , it takes a while for the coatings to burnish in ... and when done they are in the range of one or two tenths in thickness ... actually partially in the "pores" of the metal . The first time , you may see slightly elevated engine temps . Run it in , shut it down , change the oil and go racing . Again , if it didn`t work , I don`t think Roush , DEI , Penske and the others would be using them ... and I`ve been in the shop when those teams dropped off and picked up parts . I also won`t dispute the magazine tests , but I`ve learned over the years to take a lot of that stuff with more than a few grains of salt .
One of the NASCAR teams made a setup to measure hp absorbed by the drivetrain before and after and they "found" about 15 hp after the coated tranny and rear end were run in . There is also another little trick they use that I can`t tell , but the coating allows this to be used ... and save hp .
One comment on the ceramic piston top coatings ... I was told that the main purpose was to keep carbon off the tops and act as a thermal barrier to keep heat in the combustion chamber .... also helps keep the oil cool that splashes on the underside of the piston . In the old days , we polished the tops of the pistons like a mirror . Is it worth it on a street car ? No ... on a race car where every little thing adds up ... yes . The valve spring coating reduces spring temps and adds longevity . For a street car , I would do all bearings , valve springs and ring gear for added insurance/life .

[ebustin]

Bobcat you put it out so well. I to use HM. Great people, great work..

[Ralphy]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Because the coating prevents the piston from absorbing the heat from the combustion chamber.


.

Ed that seems the only answer. Even though the engine parts run cooler, the combustion chamber runs hotter.

As far as the dry lube, it sure would make nice insurance in case of oil starvation.

Bobcat, they also didn't put an engine under a hood on a 95 degree day then drive for an hour and get measurements.

Didn't Smokey Y attempt to build a motor without a cooling system?

[Ralphy]

There are lots of companies that sell these products to the do it yourself-er. They claim the materials are the same quality. From personal experience in a shop that does very similar work, prep is the key.

Another article from Circle Track.

http://www.circletrack.com/techartic..._to/index.html

[barabar]

I moly coated my pistons (below the ring lands) skirts and ceramic coated the tops above the ring lands. The prep work is very time consuming. I used products from Techline. Don't forget to bore an extra .001 over to compensate for the coating.
You will need acetone, 120 grit aluminum oxcide, sand blaster, oven 400 degrees, good touch up gun, masking tape. The people at techline will tell you exactly how. I think you need a resale license to purchase from them. GOOD LUCK
I've hot tested my engine, every seems OK. Now i'm heading for the dyno.
BBF 557 cu in probably 700+ hp and about the same in torque.

[Ralphy]

barabar, why did you seem to need more clearance? From what I have read, it's not necessary. Add the fact that you coated the top, of the piston reducing the amount of heat soak into the piston. Then also the aluminum piston having a higher heat coefficient. Then an iron block if you have an iron block. Your clearance should have been fine.

[Bobcat]

X2 on the confusion . If I understand your post , you said you coated the piston tops above the ring lands ... correct ? Does this mean there is ceramic not just on the piston top , but also on the sides down to the ring groves ??? That would possibly account for the added clearance , but wouldn`t the ceramic possibly crack because of the side loading ??? According to Harold , an advantage of the piston skirt coating is that it allows the builder to tighten up the clearances ( they won`t say how much ) , which in turn means the ring seal to the block is better since the pistons don`t rock in the bore as much . I realize we are talking small gains here , but all these small things add up . I also wonder if it has something to do with the prep and compounds Techline uses as the ones I have used require no increase in piston to wall clearances . If course , they may be using machinery that holds tolerances a lot better than what the average machine shop can do .
Again , everything had to be run in ( burnished ) before making pulls on the dyno .

[Ralphy]

Another great post on the FE Forum, talks how NASCAR qualifies with 0.5 weight oil. That is right damn near zero! Think maybe these performance coatings has something to do with it?

With all the worry about ZDDP with flat tappet motors, seems dry lubes would be a major plus for your cam.

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml

[barabar]

The moly coatings are easy to apply and it will add .0005 to .001 make sure to mic your pistons before and after. The ceramic coating is water base and a bear to apply. I used a couple of pistons to practice on and also 2 touch up guns to avoid cross contamination. Make sure your compressor has a water seperator. I let my pistons soak over night in acetone, sprayed the skirts first, baked, then recleaned the tops and ceramic them. remember to remove tape and residue befor baking. Don't forget to blast with 120 aluminum oxide. Clean ring lands throughly when finished. Like I said it is very time comsuming.
I have a big shot of NOS on this engine and hoping the moly coat will reduce friction and the ceramic coating will limit piston expanstion and send the heat out the exhaust. If you are serious I would contact Techline Coating.