input for excellent street engine

[Greg Curtis]

Getting ready to make the final decision on my new supeformance from Olthoff Racing. Still haven't made up my mind whether to get a 351stroker or a 460 big block. I want to run a beefed up ford aod strictly on the street, no track time. Basically, a cruiser with a little drags thrown in. Dennis Othoff recommended a 393 stroker with TFS heads(2.02 intake), comp cam with about a .514 lift, performer rpm & 750 holley. Only have a couple of weeks left to decide and I need some more input from the guys who know. Like I said, strictly a street car! I am not looking to start sb vs. bb debate again just need some honest opinions! Car will also have the 15 inch wheels and tires!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Greg;

For your use, I think I would follow Dennis's suggestions to the T.... For what you have planned the 393 would be hard to beat and easy to maintain and you'll have all the torque and power you need for cruising and the occasional strip blast.........

Just ask Hal Copple what he has done with his????? It is a "daily driver" for him and he drag races it as well as road races and also a little auto cross I think..... last I heard he had over 30,000 miles on it....He'd be the guy to talk to about the 393......

David

[Jack21]

Don't think you'll be unhappy with the 393 for as much power as you can use. The cam will be a hydraulic roller, won't it? Honestly, the big block will make more noise, burn more fuel, make more tire smoke, be more of a handful to drive, but not make your car any faster, or more fun to drive.

Looking at it another way; the original 427 FE made 425 HP & 470 fp/tq with 11"1 compression on 101 octane leaded gas. Your 393 with TFS heads and hydraulic roller cam will be making about 450 Hp & 460 fp/tq on about 9 1/2:1 compression with 93 octane pump gas that you can buy today. Your aluminum top engine weighs about 400 lb. The all iron FE's in Galaxies then were about 750 lb. Granted we wouldn't build an FE that way today. The point is, you're not giving up any performance with the 393, and gaining in cornering and handling.

I would, however, argue for 17" wheels & tires over the 15's. More and more folks are seeing the light on the superior performance you can get with 17" tires. A lot more than I expected now running 17's in Capitol Area club. With the correct backspacing, the 17's look factory. But the difference in go, stop, and turning power is like night and day. Think you're hurting your cars performance and capabilities by putting 15's on it.

I'm running 235/45ZR17's Falken FK451 front on TeamIII 17x8, & 275/40ZR17 rear on 9 1/2 wheel. Another clubmember is running Brigestone RE730's, similar sizes (my second choice). These things have AA traction ratings for wet and dry roads, and you'll be hard pressed to break 'em loose on a dry or rain soaked road. They are a little firmer and more precise, but not objectionable for a Cobra. You can also put 13" front/12" rear rotors for brakes with the 17". Your brakes will work harder with the AOD as you'll likely not be downshifting as much.

If I've at least got you thinking about it, then try to test drive or ride the difference. Talk to the Olthoffs about wheel, tire, and brake options. It's your money.

[wadesdad]

While this may start a pissing contest, the small block seems to have more appeal in the resale market. It is also (depending upon set-up) significantly lighter.

My $0.02 worth.

Enjoy the ride! Your's is an excellent choice in manufacturers.

[cobralee]

No debate intended. However, as practical as the 393 might be with power, 93 octane gas, etc. why not go with the original 427. You can still run 93 octane, and when people look in your engine compartment, they'll see a true Cobra motor. You can make the 427 streetable. In mine, I have a 427 running about 10:1 compression. I'm considering rebuilding it and if I do, I'm going with 11:1 - 11.5:1 compression. To me, there's no substitute for high compression. Just my .02

[427sharpe]

Go with the 460, or even better a mild 460 stroker. It WILL make more power than a small block (ain't no replacement for displacement) and do it effortlessly--forever! I have seen a lot of 'built' small strokers in my rearview fail because of engine stress factors (piston speed, rod angularity,etc..) and I have seen a lot of big blocks run thru a lot of abuse without problem. The small block will provide easier (not neccessarily better) handling, but I think you can build a solid 460-514 for a lot less than I see Windsor strokers going for. A mild 460 can provide 500 lb ft of torque (gross) in STOCK form, and well over 400 hp. The torque will put the big stupid grin on your face, and I think that's what it's all about. Now I will sit back and wait for all the Windsor fans to wind up!

[Bob In Ct]

Hey Greg:
Just a couple of thoughts based on my 1 year experience in SPF642.

15 inch tires (which I have - 245 front 275 rear) are getting harder and harder to find. BF Goodrich and I'm not sure who else. If I were doing it again I might go 16 or 17.

As far a engines go I can tell you this. Street performance is all about mid range torque, 2,500 RPM to 4,500 RPM. Torque is what accelerates the machine. Mid range torque loves dual plane manifolds and carburators which are not too big. Single plane manifolds are designed to be at there best a high RPMs. If you get a Holley which is too big for the RPMs and cubes you have there will be poor flow through it. Your low end performance will suffer at the expense of the high end you never or rarely use. The other disadvantage of the killer show engine is the price you will pay in low mileage. I have a 351W, dual plane with a 650. It's the fastest car I've ever driven (and I had a few).

You should do what makes you happy. When you do get your SPF be careful, The low weight, high power and short wheelbase can be lethal.

Good luck, Bob

[RACER X #99]

427 Sharpe,
Your no replacement for displacement almost makes sense except for on thing. Big Block Fords FE or 460's are not known for good breathing cylinder heads. Even the best aftermarket BB heads do not flow as well as the best sb aftermarket heads.
For instance a sb 427 with Yates or Brodix heads will make much more power than a FE427 with anybodys cyl. heads. And if you really want a sb to out hp your BB then choose a sb Chevy which have heads that will outlow any sb Ford Head.
Just look at the cars running in the Pro and Big Cube classes in NHRA not many BB Fords. Or look at anybodys racing parts catalog. Lots of racing parts for big and small Chevy's but only a few for the Fords.
The Big cube argument may work for the Chevy crowd but when it comes to Fords it just ain't so.

Greg

So what is your best choice for a street only engine for your Cobra? How about a FI 302 out of a late model Mustang.

[Anthony]

Hello Cranky,

BB Ford (460) heads are copies of BB Chevy heads. Dick Keinath, chief engine engineer for Chev, designer and patent owner of the canted valve design said that. Current BB pro-stock heads are nothing like the production pieces, and they do flow alot more than sb heads, but I think you need a large engine >550ci to make them run right. 1100 hp normally aspirated on pump gas.

Although it may be true that current sb ford heads (yates, etc)may flow more than the current FE heads available( Dove TP, HR Paquet), the Fe is capable of more cubic inches, and therefore I believe is capable of more Hp, especially through mid range.

If you want to make a lot of hp (>600 hp), its going to cost no matter which engine you want.

Weight wise, you can get an all aluminum 460 BB. I actually had one on order, for $3500, before I decided to go FE, when I decided to get a Shelby.

Greg, I don't know what to tell you. I think either engine will put a smile on your face. No matter which engine you get, there will be someone who is faster, although there won't be many.

The only thing is that I'm not a fan of the tremec, because of the ratio's. I think for first gear to be usable, you need to run a 2.88 to 3.08 rear diff, but then this makes 5th gear, overdrive, not as usable. If you run 3.73's to 4.30's, 5th gear is ok, but then I think first gear is too low. It's just too wide of a gear spread.

[Jack21]

A few thoughts on engine build up. Ford always seemed to be behind the power curve (pun intentional) when it came to factory heads in the breathing department. Aftermarket replacement heads changed that.

If I wanted to build up a Ford motor in the 400 inch range for a Cobra, I'd use a Windsor bottom half stroker, 393, 408, and a Cleveland top half.
Bucks down with C4v heads in iron. Bucks up with Blue Thunder aluminum Cleveland heads. The Cleveland engine headers for that particular kit should bolt right up.

[Greg Curtis]

thanks guys for answering my question and giving your opinions. I'm letting Olthoff racing handle the engine build so I'm limited to a stroker or the big blockand thats fine with me as they are the experts! Car will be limited to street use with the aod and want to be able to keep up with the z06's and vipers. I realize the maintenance on the stroker with be minimal compared to the 460 but the sound and torque of the big block are giving me a hard time making up my mind. I realize it will be my decision in the end but really needed the advice of guys who have already been there before. Thanks once again to all for you're ideas, they are well appreciated!!!!!!!

[Greg Curtis]

Almost forgot, a couple of you have mentioned the 17" wheels vs. the 15". The impression I got when I asked about it that it was a $4000 option which I considered pretty steep! I'll have to ask if they would put on a 5 lug set of 17" wheels and tires and see what the price is on them!!!!!!!

[Jack21]

$4000 is a tad steep!!!

Team III's with polished spinners are $1500. Compomotive is $2000. Centerline, and now Edelbrock also make nice looking 17's.

Decent tires will run you ~$800 depending on where you buy them, and which brand/size you get. I paid $495 including UPS ground shipping, and another $35 to have them mounted and balanced. Thes were Falken tires. Bridgestone RE 730's would have been $650 from Tire Rack. BFG's or Dunlops from local tire store, about $800.

I'd negotiate that one a little.

[bmalone]

It seems the aluminum 427 block is always overlooked in this type of post/replies.

I looked at a build cost of $21,000 for a 418 CID stroked windsor that produced about 560 Hp and over 500 ft. lbs. of torque.

I then found I could build an aluminum block and heads FE for only slightly more. More torque and more HP. The weight is within 60 lbs. of the Windsor block.

Bill

[Cajunsnake]

Hey Greg, I have to agree with 427 Sharpe

If You Want The Sound And Feel Of A 427 s/c Cobra Which These
Cars Are Built To do go with the 460/485hp
If all you want to do is cruise and a little drag race the 460 will impress people either rubbling by them or sitting at rest with the hood up parked
Before I bought my spf I drove both a sb stroker First which was extremely fast and handled great.
Then drove a bb 460/535hp demo that had so much torque I thought the car would flip over {just kidding} and the sound of those pipes With the bb heads turn before you get there,mothers gather up the kids,dogs and cats run for cover,chiks smile and wave,local cops will give the thumbs up.
Either engine choice will work great since you have already made the correct choice with superformance.

[Cajunsnake]

Greg, almost forgot the 15 inch wheels that comes on the car does give it the correct look. I have had a lot of people think my car is a original 427 cobra,I say no its an original superformace 427 s/c and have to pull out the paper work to prove it

[Dwight]

16 or 17" wheels with a 351 stroker. Bill won Top Dog at Run & Gun with a stock 351 with alum. heads. Not bad for the money and anyone can work on it. And it is dependable. And streetable!! my 2 cent

[Back in Black]

Big blocks (generally) require LESS maintainence than a built up small block, under the same use, especially if the horsepower is equal, since the BB does not have the strain produced by the Hi-Po cam, compression, etc.....which is required to make a SB perform to the same level as the (equal horsepower) BB

No replacement for displacement is a fact. As to handling, especially ease of slow speed steering, I do hear the small block or an aluminum BB may be better since these cars generally do not have power assist steering. My turnkey West Coast cobra (slated for April 2002 delivery) will have the monster 514 CI Ford bracket race motor, with Holley electronic fuel injection (throttle body, looks sort of similar to a carb)

http://www.westechperformance.com/pa...s/514ford.html

The West Coast cars have 4 wheel power ABS brakes, and power assist steering, and are balanced and designed for the heavy BB motors, they also weigh more, (have a heavy space frame and slightly larger body) and so they need the extra power to stay competitive with the slightly lighter (sort of) original designed replicas like SPF or FFR, ERA, etc..

Your lighter SPF would wail with either of the motors you mentioned. If you want a manual tranny, consider the 6 speed R.O.D. tranny I am having installed in mine, it is about $2800 new, retail. (Richmond Over Drive)

[Greg Curtis]

thanks to everyone who responded to my questions. I'm still in the decision process between bb or sb stroker. I don't believe Olthoff racing has a bb demo to test drive only the small block which is making it harder to decide between the two. Also not sure if the ford aod trans would hold up with the torque of the bb. Just don't want to be standing in my garage 6 months from now saying I should have gotten the bb!!!